Why is Japan so Weak?

[Evilsooty]

I can't recall a single game in 150 hours of playing (huge, prince, max civs) where Japan wasn't either conquered by the Medieval era or ended up falling so far behind in the tech race that it was still spamming samurais in the industrial era.

Has anyone else had this experience? It strikes me as odd as on paper they should really be doing much better given their huge bonus in combat.

 

[kamex]

The AI doesn't know how to use Bushido, end of.

 

[gozpel]

I have on some maps, but then in other games they become really strong.

I can't figure this civ out really, I was on a big peninsula and built 5 cities, only one close to Oda. He complained and I settled the other way and we were happy friends.

Then he sends his whole army through my lands and conquer China, all of it. I see the opportunity and take his 3 cities on the peninsula, I only take one chinese city in peace as I wanted that spot and he's still friendly.

Then in former Chinas lands he builds up a great army and starting to conquer civ after civ and now I'm getting itchy. So I have take him on and take former Chinas lands and his core is now Iro/Roman territory. He still loves me and continue on his crusade against anything, but me.

I think I can trust his friendship more than other leaders, I can't think of one game where he backstabbed me.

If he builds more than 3 cities, he usually goes to war. If he builds less than 3 cities, he will go to war later and not at you, if you cradled him already. And when he go war-out, he is strong.

 

[thadian]

ive never thought of japan to be weak but there are a lot of AI's that gain penalty or benefit just for how the AI behaves.

Arabia is usually strong in part because the player always wants to trade and arabia gets paid more than most others.

Alex and Cesar are usually strong because their UU come in relatively same era.

Ghandi can become very powerful because of the AI tendancy to spam all wall buildings.

Ramkan is strong WHEN he buys city states, and sometimes he buys them all.

A lot of these things are just kind of automatic so the AI doesn't really have to behave a certain way to get maximum benefit of what a civ 'does'.

Meanwhile civ's that tend to suffer do so because you have to behave a certain way to maximise use and the AI is terrible at that. Ive noticed most of the "weak" civilizations are "weak" because the AI doesn't know how to use them and the "Strong ones" are even stronger when you dont have to do much but plop horses/iron early to activate.

 

[gozpel]

So what are your experiences with Japan, thadian?

That was the question.

 

[Evilsooty]

A lot of these things are just kind of automatic so the AI doesn't really have to behave a certain way to get maximum benefit of what a civ 'does'.

Meanwhile civ's that tend to suffer do so because you have to behave a certain way to maximise use and the AI is terrible at that. Ive noticed most of the "weak" civilizations are "weak" because the AI doesn't know how to use them and the "Strong ones" are even stronger when you dont have to do much but plop horses/iron early to activate.

Yes, the AI hasn't really got a clue about its unique bonuses. For example in my last game there was a silk tile within purchasing distance from one of Washington's cities and in the 400 or so turns before I squashed him he didn't buy it despite his having a discount for doing so

Japan not deriving a huge amount of benefit from their UA is odd though given how every civ will go to war at the drop of a hat in this game so I expected them to do a bit better, even if their UA just happens to correlate to the AI's psychotic behaviour.

Gozpel,

In the games they have become strong are they still behind in tech relying on samurai rushes? Because I wouldn't like to go against a Japan on par technologically, at least before Flight, as even the remedial AI can't go terribly wrong with super soldiers :0

 

[gozpel]

Evilsooty: for my example, I really think they picked up research after taking China, their former land was quite riverless. But Old China had heaps of commerce.

But for me, China was strong and still Oda walked over there and took it all in 20 turns. So they must've used Bushido at some points. He just walked over there and took it and remember China is NOT easy to fight with chocs and stuff. I wouldn't be able to do it, but to be fair, he had a BUNCH going there.

He would've killed me too, I think, if he went that way. (immortal)

 

[snarzberry]

Maybe it's the ghost of crazy Tokugawa.

Seriously though, I've found Nobu to be very aggressive in the early game, frequently DoWing me if I'm weak after the turn 70 point. I've had a couple of massive mid to late game showdowns with Japan, one that has always stuck in my memory where he backstabbed and then nuked me repeatedly for what felt like an age.

 

[gozpel]

Make a friend of him and I think he stays friends forever, even if you slip now and again.

Make an enemy of him, will be the same.

 

[thadian]

Japan not deriving a huge amount of benefit from their UA is odd though given how every civ will go to war at the drop of a hat in this game so I expected them to do a bit better, even if their UA just happens to correlate to the AI's psychotic behaviour.

I noticed with the patch it seems like every damaged AI unit turns tail and runs away, i wish oda didn't do that.

 

[Evilsooty]

I noticed with the patch it seems like every damaged AI unit turns tail and runs away, i wish oda didn't do that.

That might have something to do with it. Maybe some kind of Kamikaze trait could be put in place just for Oda.

 

[drlucifer]

Certainly an AI opponent I like to see. But I've had a few games where all through the Renaissance they're very weak, then in Industrial/Modern times they end up warring a higher-score AI civ and pretty much crushing them.

 

[bryanw1995]

My experiences with Oda are mixed, some times he's great and some times he gets squashed. I love playing him as the human of course, however, bushido + samurai = win.

 

[apocalypse105]

Thats because he is a warlord and atacks everybody so he gets conquered or spend so much time in his conquest that he is technological behind.

 

[Civsassin]

Thats because he is a warlord and atacks everybody so he gets conquered or spend so much time in his conquest that he is technological behind.

 

[McRoos]

In my games he is always the looser....

 

[Lose]

you guys dont know how to use bushido

 

[Civsassin]

you guys dont know how to use bushido

The post is not about playing as him; it's about playing against him. I've had successful games as Japan several times.

 

[Omega124]

Japan is one of those things that is broken (Or at least very strong) when used by humans, but the AI has no idea how to use it, and just fails. The AI will simply not charge an enemy when a unit is damaged, which is really the point of Bushido.

 

[BobDole]

In my games he's either really strong or a total joke generally. A few games, I've seen him barely expand and pick fights with his neighbors, which generally results in him getting his ass kicked and/or being weak the entire game. In others, he cuts other civs down like crazy. At least he makes an OK friend sometimes, at least until enough people get annoyed with him to the point where I have to cut ties with him.