Why is the world hostile to Christians?

[MobBoss]

Ever hear of the Crusades?

Doesnt ring a bell. I have no idea what the crusades were.

Do you know all of the atrocities commited in your God's name? Frankly, I think if he did exist, he'd be embarassed by it. As opposed to your stance that it never happened.

Uhm...I have never, ever said that the crusades never happened. I am willing to bet you a paycheck that you will never find a quote by me on this forum that states "the crusades never happened"....are you willing to take that bet? If so PM me so you can send your paycheck to me via paypal (assuming you have a job), because I sure as hell know you wont find me saying that anywhere.

And I agree that God would most likely be saddened by the event. Shocker.

 

[DBear]

Blah blah blah Crusades--we're talking about now, not what happened hundreds of years ago.

 

[CaptainF]

Not many, unless of course you mean the ones that think of Tupac or Biggie Smalls as their gods.

heeeeeere we go...

I think that reason is BS. Many people think of Jimi Hendrix as a "god" (emphasis on the quotes), yet they do not shoot smack or trash hotel rooms or crash expensive cars for the hell of it.

I would say that people who think of musical icons as gods are morons, but not stupid enough to emulate every facet of their life. That is foolish, seeing as no one is perfect and everyone is different. What floats Jimi's boat might just sink yours.

Besides, worshipping Tupac's or Biggie's or Jimi's or Miles Davis' persona would be missing the whole point of their music.

 

[MobBoss]

heeeeeere we go...

Heh, I read this and I just smiled because I got a great mental image of a guy in a roller coaster just coming to the loop......

 

[CaptainF]

I notice a trend here, atheists think religious people are morally wrong, religious people think atheists are morally wrong.

On the whole issue of criminals, I really don't think that applying religion to that is relevant. Many of the great mobsters of the 20th century were religious, many were not. Crime is just like any demographic in society, the only difference being the sociopathy. I can picture a selfish religious mobster claiming that he is morally right in commiting crime, just as I can see an atheist criminal serving only hisself.

I am not an atheist, I would say I lean more towards religious, though I am not a formal member of any religion. I am more so religiously minded. But I know atheists and they tell me that not believing in god allows them to believe in humanity instead. Seems perfectly rational to me. I can also accept that a religious person would prefer to serve a deity and do good that way.

It all goes in teh same direction, there are just forks in the road.

 

[shadow2k]

Doesnt ring a bell. I have no idea what the crusades were.








Uhm...I have never, ever said that the crusades never happened. I am willing to bet you a paycheck that you will never find a quote by me on this forum that states "the crusades never happened"....are you willing to take that bet? If so PM me so you can send your paycheck to me via paypal (assuming you have a job), because I sure as hell know you wont find me saying that anywhere.

And I agree that God would most likely be saddened by the event. Shocker.

You completely missed the point, which seems to be a common theme with you. You claim that there were not many criminals currently behind bars who carried out their crimes in the name of your God. That's where the "never happened" came from. The crusades would just be the most well known, massive atrocity that people outside of your religion are familiar with. Of course, there are many others. There are entire books written on the subject of crimes in the name of God...including Jesus Christ.

As for when such and such happend (for the other fellow), does it really matter? I mean, the bible is allegedly unchanged since it was written nearly 2,000yrs ago. So anything after that is applicable. The rules of God didn't change since then...did they?

Your assumption that identifies religion with superior moral values ignores the historic fact that almost every human practice that is considered to be atrocious was, at one point or another, performed as a religous duty. Not all of them were attributed to Christian views, but many were. The most obvious being murder carried out in the name of God.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Independent minded people don't like to be told what to do or how to think. They feel very comfortable making their own decisions. When evangelical christians (or any other similar group) try to force their opinions and beliefs on such people they stand up for themselves and their independence. If christians kept their mouths shut and only demonstrated their faith through action, there would be much less hostility.

 

[MobBoss]

You completely missed the point, which seems to be a common theme with you. You claim that there were not many criminals currently behind bars who carried out their crimes in the name of your God. That's where the "never happened" came from.

Ok, then lets settle it. Please provide proof in the form of a link that many criminals behind bars did it because God told them to. I will wait patiently for your proof. However, I have a feeling you will find that the gangbangers, the druggies, the petty thieves, murderers, rapists, forgers, extortionists, etc, etc, will have largly done it for their own selfish purposes. Typically, the ones that do it because God tells them to are in the mental ward as they are most likely insane.

Also, I will wait patiently for your PM of the details of your paycheck transfer.

The crusades would just be the most well known, massive atrocity that people outside of your religion are familiar with. Of course, there are many others. There are entire books written on the subject of crimes in the name of God...including Jesus Christ.

Soooo, let me get this straight. You take a conversation on morals of prison inmates and somehow deduce from that conversation that I never believed the crusades happened?

Hooo doggie.

Your assumption that identifies religion with superior moral values ignores the historic fact that almost every human practice that is considered to be atrocious was, at one point or another, performed as a religous duty. Not all of them were attributed to Christian views, but many were. The most obvious being murder carried out in the name of God.

How is your feeling on Atheist governments like Soviet Russia and the people who were killed by that government? Or WWII Germany?

You see, what you fail to point out is that those atrocities, while religious in nature, were still the naked power grab plays by leaders who waged war for their own gain, but simply used religion as a tool to get what they wanted.

 

[Innawerkz]

Simple enough. Take me for instance, I'm a fairly young guy, have a normal job, wife and two kids. I have BBQ's, birthday parties, watch football and baseball, and drive an average joe car. Everything about me has middle America and average joe written all over it except one thing, I'm a Christian. That is a believer in Christ who tries with God's grace to live a life pleasing to Him and according to His will for me. So the question is "Why is the world hostile towards me?"

I know the biblical answer, but would very much be interested in the views of "unbelievers". Not necessarily hostile ones either, just in general.

Are you sure it is because you are a Christian?

I try to place myself in the shoes (excuse that) of a slave in Sudan, Africa or a starving orphan in Salta, Argentina: They are struggling for survival, while within walking distance of their homes (excuse that) they are teased with Western driven riches.

Their day: consists of robbing, killing or scrounging for food.
Your day: Baseball & Football with the kids

Their water: Either unclean, diseased, or their supply purchased by an American mega-corporation and sold back to them at unattainable prices.
Yours: On tap or a short drive in your oil fueled car to get a bottle made of formulated plastic from oil that was extracted from the ground of their land for poverty wages.

Their Food: Taunted by hanging food that they pick so that it can be boxed, shipped, trucked and displayed for your convenience at $0.12/lb. only for the 'privilege' of a simple hovel to live in.
Yours: A BBQ steak that comes from a cow that eats enough grain in a week to feed a small village for a month.

Gold & diamonds mined in the poorest of conditions so that it can end up in our alcohol, on our fancy cakes, or sold in a store for the simple creation of something for the wealthy minority to recycle tax dollars.

IMO, the fact that you are Christian has little to do with it. I would be a little put off if I was deprived of these luxuries, expected to shoulder the burden to benefit life for others, be exploited unknowingly/forcibly toward this cause & finally have the by-products of this society propagated back to me when they no longer have value.

Not expecting anyone to jump off the couch to this cause, but how would you feel? Maybe they wonder how Christian worshipping people would knowingly allow this to happen...

 

[aneeshm]

I consider Christianity , the religion , as an idea which is underdeveloped and too obsessed with logical contradictions to be a creative force . Due to its expansionist nature , it is also capable of great harm ( as has already been inflicted on the world which is now Christian ) . I do not hate Christians - in fact , I'm apathetic towards them - but I do combat their imperialist ideology wherever I find it .

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

Thats what i mean. Most Christains are much farther from Jesus's teachings than Diests, Athiests, Thiests and Agnostics.

 

[CaptainF]

Ok, then lets settle it. Please provide proof in the form of a link that many criminals behind bars did it because God told them to. I will wait patiently for your proof. However, I have a feeling you will find that the gangbangers, the druggies, the petty thieves, murderers, rapists, forgers, extortionists, etc, etc, will have largly done it for their own selfish purposes. Typically, the ones that do it because God tells them to are in the mental ward as they are most likely insane.

I would not say that most criminals are selfish. I would say desperate. I have no doubt that criminals are aware that they commit odious acts, but they feel the need to do it out of necessity, to put food on the table, to pay the bills.

Granted, some criminals are selfish (serial killers, etc.), but I would say that for every selfish criminal who gets a kick out of his lifestyle, there are two that do what they feel is imperative to stay afloat, regardless of moral conviction.

It can even be argued that serial killers and the like are desperate, but I won't tread those waters.

 

[shadow2k]

Ok, then lets settle it. Please provide proof in the form of a link that many criminals behind bars did it because God told them to. I will wait patiently for your proof. However, I have a feeling you will find that the gangbangers, the druggies, the petty thieves, murderers, rapists, forgers, extortionists, etc, etc, will have largly done it for their own selfish purposes. Typically, the ones that do it because God tells them to are in the mental ward as they are most likely insane.

Also, I will wait patiently for your PM of the details of your paycheck transfer.



Soooo, let me get this straight. You take a conversation on morals of prison inmates and somehow deduce from that conversation that I never believed the crusades happened?

Hooo doggie.



How is your feeling on Atheist governments like Soviet Russia and the people who were killed by that government? Or WWII Germany?

You see, what you fail to point out is that those atrocities, while religious in nature, were still the naked power grab plays by leaders who waged war for their own gain, but simply used religion as a tool to get what they wanted.

Hold up there kiddo. You seem to like to twist words. Of course, I'm used to that by now. Show me where I say, "many criminals behind bars did it because God told them to." It would be right here in this thread, wouldn't it?

I did ask how many criminals behind bars commited atrocities in God's name. Asked being the key word. You answered, but provided no proof for your answer. You're the only one here making unsubstantiated claims, including your supposed moral superiority. Where's the proof for the only claim made regarding that topic (which was made by you, interestingly enough)?

I do enjoy how you're so willing to ask for proof of things though. Did you ask anyone for proof that your God exists?

For the second time (why will it not surprise me if there's a third), I never stated you didn't believe the Crusades ever happened. Read it again. Maybe slower this time?

Atheist governments? You do realize that very seldom do Atheists hold similar views right? Atheists aren't similar in the way that Christians are similar. We don't all live by the same set of rules. Atheism is the belief that there are not any Gods. That's it. You do realize this, right? There's no book we've all been carrying around for the last two millenia that tells us what's right and wrong.

So if the leaders of Soviet Russia were all Atheists, and I'm an Atheist...the only conclusion that can logically be drawn is that neither of us believes in God. My culture is completely different from theirs, the government I live under is about as different as it could be, have different customs, etc... Same with WWII Germany. I don't agree with most of their views. What was your point again?

I will agree with one thing though. Religion has most definitely been used as a tool.

 

[MobBoss]

I would not say that most criminals are selfish. I would say desperate. I have no doubt that criminals are aware that they commit odious acts, but they feel the need to do it out of necessity, to put food on the table, to pay the bills.

Or buy their drugs, or get that nifty plasma TV, or get street cred. Guys like the Enron execs are simply not desparate. Guys decked out in gold chains stealing cars are not desparate. Sorry, but I dont generally buy into the "noble criminal" concept either.

It can even be argued that serial killers and the like are desperate, but I won't tread those waters.

Well, I personally would go for mentally ill, but you get the picture.

 

[shadow2k]

You see, what you fail to point out is that those atrocities, while religious in nature, were still the naked power grab plays by leaders who waged war for their own gain, but simply used religion as a tool to get what they wanted.

I wanted to specifically address this.

While some (not all) religious atrocities were carried out for the sake of power, they are still using religion as a basis for it. And people follow, based on that religion. And in some instances, even in the OT, God commanded these things to be done, or at least, one of the prophets claimed God said it would happen. Do I really need to dig through the scriptures to get quotes for you? I mean, we all have seen them.

"Cruel persecution and intolerance are not accidents but flow out of the very essence of religion, namely, its absolute claims. So long as each religion claims to have absolute revealed truth, all other religions are sinful errors. Despite the fact that some religions speak eloquently of universal brotherhood, they have always in fact divided mankind into sects, while science has united them into one community, which desires to profit by enlightenment. Even when a religion like Christianity sweeps over diverse peoples and temporarily unites them into one its passionate nature inevitably leads to the development of sects and heresies. There is no drearier chapter in the history of human misery than the unusually bloody internecine religious or sectarian wars which have drenched in blood so much of Europe, Northern Africa, and Western Asia."

 

[shadow2k]

Or buy their drugs, or get that nifty plasma TV, or get street cred. Guys like the Enron execs are simply not desparate. Guys decked out in gold chains stealing cars are not desparate. Sorry, but I dont generally buy into the "noble criminal" concept either.

Or Priests that sodomize their choir boys, or embezzle funds meant for the church, etc... Plenty of crimes have been commited by religious believers as well.

 

[MobBoss]

Hold up there kiddo. You seem to like to twist words. Of course, I'm used to that by now. Show me where I say, "many criminals behind bars did it because God told them to." It would be right here in this thread, wouldn't it?

I did ask how many criminals behind bars commited atrocities in God's name. Asked being the key word. You answered, but provided no proof for your answer. You're the only one here making unsubstantiated claims, including your supposed moral superiority. Where's the proof for the only claim made regarding that topic (which was made by you, interestingly enough)?

Hmmm, when you asked the how many, I understood that to be a comment directed toward the number of religious criminals in the klink, not a rhetorical question.

I do enjoy how you're so willing to ask for proof of things though. Did you ask anyone for proof that your God exists?

Didnt need to.

For the second time (why will it not surprise me if there's a third), I never stated you didn't believe the Crusades ever happened. Read it again. Maybe slower this time?

Here is your quote: "Ever hear of the Crusades? Do you know all of the atrocities commited in your God's name? Frankly, I think if he did exist, he'd be embarassed by it. As opposed to your stance that it never happened." Emphasis mine. Now in reading this, I see a directly statement to me that I have had somewhere a stance that the crusades never happened. I dunno...even reading it slower it still sounds to me like I read it correctly.

Atheist governments? You do realize that very seldom do Atheists hold similar views right? Atheists aren't similar in the way that Christians are similar.

Clue to you. By that standard, Christians are not similiar either.

We don't all live by the same set of rules.

Neither do christians.

Atheism is the belief that there are not any Gods. That's it. You do realize this, right? There's no book we've all been carrying around for the last two millenia that tells us what's right and wrong.

Yup yup, I am all over that.

So if the leaders of Soviet Russia were all Atheists, and I'm an Atheist...the only conclusion that can logically be drawn is that neither of us believes in God. My culture is completely different from theirs, the government I live under is about as different as it could be, have different customs, etc...

Same with me. Do you think my culture is different than say, a Christian Greek Orthodox from Greece? Our governments are surely different, we certainly have different customs. And yet, you would lump all christians as responsible for the CRUSADES for example. BAH. I am as different a christian from the Crusaders as are you are a different an atheist from the leaders of the Soviet Union.

Stop being such a hypocrite.

 

[MobBoss]

Or Priests that sodomize their choir boys, or embezzle funds meant for the church, etc... Plenty of crimes have been commited by religious believers as well.

Hmmm, you inject this into a argument that has neither atheist or christian connotations?

Seems to me you are a direct example of someone who is "hostile" to christians ala the thread title.

Are you trying to make the claim that religous believers are in some way more apt to commit crime? Whats the point you are trying to make here?

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

Stop being such a hypocrit.

How is he being a hypocrite?
youre acting morally superious to us because you belive in God. Well you know what? Almost every war i can think was caused by a reaigion or a conflict that began with realigion.
Reformation and Prodestant vs. Catholic Wars-This ones a bit too easy
Revolution-Yep. Freedom of Realigion
1812-Caused by revolutinary war, which in turn was caused by realigion
WWI-You got me here.
WWII-Hitlers hatred of the Jew's (he considered himself a chriatiain, btw)
Vietnam and Korea-Caused by Communism, which could be considered a realgion depending on definition.
Gulf Wars/Middle Eastern Conflicts-Yep. Dont need to explain.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

Hmmm, you inject this into a argument that has neither atheist or christian connotations?

Seems to me you are a direct example of someone who is "hostile" to christians ala the thread title.

Are you trying to make the claim that religous believers are in some way more apt to commit crime? Whats the point you are trying to make here?

You are being "hostile" to anyone who disagerees with you and athiests, by your defention of hostile.
You, sir, are the hypocrite.