Why is true communism utopic?

Xen said:
why? why is it not communism? Hmmmm? answer me that? Democracy has changed face over the cours eo fhistoy severl times, and yet we still call it democracy; COmmunism lacks a refinement it needs to make it practionable in the real world, giving it that refinement dosent stop it, if still true to a tleast the majority of its goals, to be communism.

I'm sure all those 5th graders whove gone up to 6th can tell you that one ;)

because communism implies that everyone gets the same, and until the english language changes and makes the word mean something else nothing else is communism. Democracy doesn't work and it doesn't exist either, after all those years of saying the pledge of allegiance and saying "to the Republic for which it stands" one should come to the conclusion that this is a republic not a democracy. Insult my intelegence all you want I don't like to play the game of semantics.
 
Shadylookin said:
because communism implies that everyone gets the same, and until the english language changes and makes the word mean something else nothing else is communism. Democracy doesn't work and it doesn't exist either, after all those years of saying the pledge of allegiance and saying "to the Republic for which it stands" one should come to the conclusion that this is a republic not a democracy. Insult my intelegence all you want I don't like to play the game of semantics.

A)first off, playign that little game of semantics is inescapable with the language we use to communcate; not my fault, or anyone elses in particuler, just the name of the game when the language itself is a corss bree dof latin and germanic, and givewn the flair of ever british colony

B)Republics are a form of democracy; demorcay itself being rule by the people; a republic is indirect rule by the people, and while of a mixed blessing that is, is better then nothign resemblign true democracy at all (there is also the fact that the republci is the first form of democracy known)

C)a veiw that everythign must have an exact definition liek that is rather, at leas tim my opinion, stupid, and while my thoyught cente ron you adopting it only to appear to win, ro bow out of the argument, since i dotn knwo you, i cant say anythign (yet here i go using an old trick by CIciero to bring it into the argument... unintentional to have that effect, but it had to be said IMO)

D)no semantics can change my argument however; that communsim as we know it, whiel flawed if refined woudl work endlesslly better to the betterment of all people involved then then libertarianism; that said dont get me wrong, i doubt it would be a perfect solution, onyl better then the alternitive given.
 
Xen said:
A)first off, playign that little game of semantics is inescapable with the language we use to communcate; not my fault, or anyone elses in particuler, just the name of the game when the language itself is a corss bree dof latin and germanic, and givewn the flair of ever british colony

B)Republics are a form of democracy; demorcay itself being rule by the people; a republic is indirect rule by the people, and while of a mixed blessing that is, is better then nothign resemblign true democracy at all (there is also the fact that the republci is the first form of democracy known)

C)a veiw that everythign must have an exact definition liek that is rather, at leas tim my opinion, stupid, and while my thoyught cente ron you adopting it only to appear to win, ro bow out of the argument, since i dotn knwo you, i cant say anythign (yet here i go using an old trick by CIciero to bring it into the argument... unintentional to have that effect, but it had to be said IMO)

D)no semantics can change my argument however; that communsim as we know it, whiel flawed if refined woudl work endlesslly better to the betterment of all people involved then then libertarianism; that said dont get me wrong, i doubt it would be a perfect solution, onyl better then the alternitive given.


I may be stupid because I had a hard time reading that post. Please type slower next time.

This thread isn't about what Xen thinks communism should be is it? It's about what true communism is isn't it? True communism is "to each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." Deny it and call me stupid if it pleases the mighty Xen this is an internet forum so I don't really care.
 
Shadylookin said:
I may be stupid because I had a hard time reading that post. Please type slower next time.

This thread isn't about what Xen thinks communism should be is it? It's about what true communism is isn't it? True communism is "to each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." Deny it and call me stupid if it pleases the mighty Xen this is an internet forum so I don't really care.


If it pleases me, fine; I will insult your intelligence, however, it dosent really; my lkittle remarks where made to show that it was rather obvious, at least to me what i was getting at, but I assure you, if at any time I feel the want to insult you, I will.

more over, to assume that what I'm saying dosent fit into the thread is going rather far; the threads topic is abotu communism, and this is a rather approprieate little divergence of it; communsim as we know it isnt really utopic; communism refined could be, if you wish to keep your exact definitions, and live in a black and white world, go ahead, its fine by me, I doubt I could care less if the world leaves you in the proverbial dust.
 
It seems to me that the majority of negative opinion as to Communism is based on a 'reds under the bed' mythology - and that stemming from the USSR, most obvious real world example.

**Soviet Russia is a Limited Example**
But it IS only one example - and one, perhaps, more accuratly called SOVIET Communism - as it possessed some particular features that are, either, not universal, or actually in 'violation' of some key tenets of Communism.

Realistically, I think it would more accuratly be called a tyranny that publically ascribes to Communism.

Consider that the Gulag and shipping millions of people to Siberia, political prisonsers, etc, violate the most obvious and fundamental tenets as to 'freedom and equality'.

** Real World Examples of Success Exist**
I am reminded of a local example - which is a one of a few that I am aware - it's 'citizens' appear to be happy and healthy, and possessed of motivation and self-determination.

Which, frankly, contradicts many claims that 'Communism doesn't work' - it very clearly does.

**But it's still, Ultimately, a Pipe-dream**
As some have suggested as to human nature, a TRUE communist society, on a large scale, has yet to occur, and appears impossible - if only due to human nature.

But these aspects are just as relevant to any system, as corruption and imperialism in current democratic society shows.

Any succesful system would need to be a balance of controls, effectively to protect the citizen from other, predatory, individuals and organisations.

The obvious collapse of the Soviet Union, as it did adhere to some communist pricinples, was due to the exact same factors as any other society experiences, but magnified through it's encouragement of tyranny.

In this respect, as the USA did appear more succesful, it wasn't due to Capitalism/Communism, but to a wider sense of freedom in the US - the Russians, essentially, defeated themselves, through apathy and passive resistance.

**Communism and Libertarianism **
While at first appearing worlds apart, each is so similar - each espousing an ideal of individual rights and freedoms, but qualifying different focuses of responsibility.

Soviet Communism espoused an overwhelming individual responsibility to society.

Libertarianism espouses individual with virtually no responsibility at all.

Each presents an extreme view - and extreme positions are all most likely to lead to the degree of disfunction, then collapse, as the Soviet Union - in short, Extreme Libertarianism is as likely to succeed as Extreme Communism - that is, not likely at all, and each Utopic, in the sense that the have lovely, but unattainable ideals, due to human nature.
 
My eyes hurt when trying to read your posts, Xen. Mix in some cut & paste and spellcheck, as these minor steps could really help folks understand your points.

But anyway, I can't understand your earlier point about libertarianism being the same as communism. Sure, both are political philosophies, but just as Hinduism and Christianity are both religions, nobody is trying to make the illogical leap that they are the same because they worship a deity.

Please note the following definitions (from dictionary.com):

libertarian - One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state / One who believes in free will

communist - A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people

How in the world can you even imply that they are mutual?

Can you understand these definitions? One is free of the state, the other requires it for it's mere existence!

You are off your rocker if you actually try to make the case that either of these political philosophies have anything in common! (put down the left-handed cigarette! :p )

In addition, your earlier example of the current U.S. government's actions is irrelevant, as the federal level is neither libertarian nor communist.
 
Double Barrel said:
My eyes hurt when trying to read your posts, Xen. Mix in some cut & paste and spellcheck, as these minor steps could really help folks understand your points.

But anyway, I can't understand your earlier point about libertarianism being the same as communism. Sure, both are political philosophies, but so is Hinduism and Christianity, and nobody is trying to make the illogical leap that they are the same because they worship a deity.

I never said they were the same; only that moder, current, real life culture, what we live everysingle day of our lives, as intertwined them or rather aspects that are really identifide (or perhaps even identifiable at all) to one but not the other, into every day life; sorry if I was not clear on the issue.
 
Double Barrel said:
libertarian - One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state / One who believes in free will

communist - A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people

We can find dictionary quotes to say almost anything - as it is, that is one person's opinion of Communism - since it is most likely based on an opinion of Soviet Communism - more accurately call a Tyranny, the definition is nonesense.
 
Xen said:
"To each according to his ability"

Mcdonalds workers would not get paid the same as any one workign ina nuclear plant, only the same as all other people working in his position in any other mcdonalds.


And who decides the person's ability? Do you think the person working at McDonalds lacked the abillity to be at a Nuclear plant or was the quota filled for this job leaving the McD's job.
 
Xiahou-Dun said:
And who decides the person's ability? Do you think the person working at McDonalds lacked the abillity to be at a Nuclear plant or was the quota filled for this job leaving the McD's job.


I woudl assume that the erson is there by choice; freedom and equality after all, if he shows ability to do better, then he will move up the ranks, if he dosent, he wont, if he gradually improves, then he will move as well.
 
more over, to assume that what I'm saying dosent fit into the thread is going rather far; the threads topic is abotu communism, and this is a rather approprieate little divergence of it; communsim as we know it isnt really utopic; communism refined could be, if you wish to keep your exact definitions, and live in a black and white world, go ahead, its fine by me, I doubt I could care less if the world leaves you in the proverbial dust.

It doesn't fit because it isn't communism. Communism is where everyone has an equal share(deserved or not) I don't know what your trying to propose but it seems more like state regulated capitalism which is unnecessary. Utopias exist in mere legends and religions and are only thought upon by the idealist youth or the nostalgic elderly who have forgoten that bad things of the past. Your not advocating a tiny difference your saying the entire root of the philosophy is wrong(which it is) so your changing it and trying to make it keep the exact same title. If communism is the future I'd say staying behind wouldn't be so bad. Every country that has tried it ended up killing about 40% of the population.
 
The definition is nonsense. :rolleyes: yeaaaah riiiiiiight

I see. So millions of folks can agree on definitions, but since your intellect is obviously beyond superior to the masses, you get to make up your own definitions. You are one of the definitions of a fool, btw.

Nice chattin' with you, but I have nothing more to say to those that choose to make up their own definitions to already well-defined words. Besides, I seriously doubt you could understand deeper concepts and conduct respectable debates when you think libertarianism and communism are the same. :dubious:

I guess a cat is a dog, 'eh? Duuuuuh! "yeah, cuz I siad so that means thta thay ur"

Whatever. :banana:

against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain
 
I agree entirely.
Communism is evil(and plain stupid) on paper, as well as on practice.
 
Shadylookin said:
If communism is the future I'd say staying behind wouldn't be so bad. Every country that has tried it ended up killing about 40% of the population.

That, very obviously, has no real relation to communism - as it is an economic system - such atrocity is due to people involved.

:rolleyes: I'm pretty sure that 40% of people were not killed when this community near Nelson decided to shift to Communistic principle - 'but that's at the local level'? Level doesn't matter one jot.

But the argument - as to 40% - that you advance, relies solely on emotive. It doesn't stand, as equally as '40%' of populations have been killed by many different kinds of government.
 
Xen said:
I woudl assume that the erson is there by choice; freedom and equality after all, if he shows ability to do better, then he will move up the ranks, if he dosent, he wont, if he gradually improves, then he will move as well.

Ok then...

Why would a person in this "Utopia" choose to take a low paying job when he or she has had the same education as the rest?
 
"Nice chattin' with you, but I have nothing more to say to those that choose to make up their own definitions to already well-defined words. Besides, I seriously doubt you could understand deeper concepts and conduct respectable debates when you think libertarianism and communism are the same."

I think the point is that Libertarism and Communism are very much the same - as they feature some particular and fundamental similarities.

Obviously unable to speak for others, but I suspect you must be so entrenched in the 'reds under the bed' mythos, that you are unable to detach 'Communism' from the evils perpetrated in the USSR. They are two different things, even as the USSR violated some key aspects of Communism. Just as the USA is not the same as Freedom, and also violates some aspects of that ideal.
 
Xen said:
"To each according to his ability"

Mcdonalds workers would not get paid the same as any one workign ina nuclear plant, only the same as all other people working in his position in any other mcdonalds.

Eh...
The motto of communism is "From each according to his abilities", not to each. What you just said is the definition of capitalism.

Perhaps you should do some reading on communism, because apparently you don't know the first thing about it.
 
luiz said:
Eh...
The motto of communism is "From each according to his abilities", not to each. What you just said is the definition of capitalism.

Perhaps you should do some reading on communism, because apparently you don't know the first thing about it.

Isn't that like saying, 'you spelt capital/ol/ism wrong, therefore, you are wrong'?
 
10Seven said:
That, very obviously, has no real relation to communism - as it is an economic system - such atrocity is due to people involved.

:rolleyes: I'm pretty sure that 40% of people were not killed when this community near Nelson decided to shift to Communistic principle - 'but that's at the local level'? Level doesn't matter one jot.

But the argument - as to 40% - that you advance, relies solely on emotive. It doesn't stand, as equally as '40%' of populations have been killed by many different kinds of government.

communism takes people does it not?

the community was voluntary was it not? Trying to turn an entire nation communist is not. Of course it matters whether it was local or not. The economy is global now and the people there are just denying reality(like all communists I suppose) What kind of serious conflicts can you have in a small community. If the whole place burnt down it might get a small section in a newspaper. When you have millions of people and when many of them don't agree with the system your trying to force them into real fights can happen.

Well if the examples of non-communistic nations killing off a large portion of their nation are so many you won't have a hard time giving me a lot of examples will you now;)
 
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