Why Is Youth So Left-Wing?

[amadeus]

If we're going to get into discussions of Christ, nobody had ever forced him to be generous, he was voluntarily. Jesus was a libertarian

 

[thestonesfan]

I do doubt Jesus would support high taxation, or giving people seatbelt tickets.

 

[Mise]

I thought Jesus said, "give money to charity or go to hell". Doesn't sound very libertarian to me. Nowadays its, "give money to the government or go to jail". So I'd say Jesus was a lefty.

 

[thestonesfan]

That wouldn't be very charitable to send people to hell for not giving to charity.

 

[Mise]

It's not charitable, it's a punishment, for not obeying the law.

 

[thestonesfan]

Maybe he was leftist, then.

 

[aaron_burr]

I thought Jesus said, "give money to charity or go to hell". Doesn't sound very libertarian to me. Nowadays its, "give money to the government or go to jail". So I'd say Jesus was a lefty.

You're confusing the difference between morality and legality. Jesus obviously wants you to obey the laws of God (morality). But man's laws are another question.

In fact, the classical Catholic Church is a good example. St. Paul was more worried about getting slaves to heaven than ending slavery. The Medieval Church was more concerned with getting people to stop going to prostitutes than actually outlawing prostitution. "Blue laws" are much more likely in non-Catholic countries.

The point: Morality does not equal legality, and one could argue that God reserves all such punishments to Himself ("Vengeance is mine..." etc etc). While I'm not an upper-case-L Libertarian, I do think Christ had a strong libertarian streak. In fact, many early Christian communities were secessionist, they dropped out of civil society.

 

[Japher]

The youth are more liberal because they have yet to bare any of the burden, and have been spoiled by their baby boomer parents, most of whom, have lived a life in relative stable financial markets. Once the youth begins to work, pay taxes, and struggle more when the democrats take away their parents money to give to some snot who has done nothing but pick his nose his whole life the youth will see the light and ditch their ignorant and seflish ways...

Register Republican
Vote Bush 2004
:b:

Kerry is a two-faced lieing scumbag who would make Georgie boy look like Mother Teresa...

This post was not paid for by the George W. Bush Campaign for Re-election.

 

[aaron_burr]

Most people in the world are not Christians. And being a Christian and being a conservative are not the same thing. Somebody like Al Sharpton is a Christian yet reaches different conclusions than you about politics. (1)If you dispute that he counts as a Christian, it means the number of Christians that exists is far smaller than the numbers quoted.

(2)For myself, I don't believe there is a God, so I don't believe he came to earth. Someone else might say, God came to earth, but it wasn't as Jesus, and the things he said to do were different than Jesus said, or maybe he didn't tell people what to do at all.

(3)Rightist ideologies have no monopoly on Aristotle, Christ,even Aquinas.
'Leftism' is not a single strain of thought. If we take Aristotle for example, he taught in his ethics works, that man could strive to become better through the habitual practice of good acts. To my mind this idea has been developed by some leftist ideologies which have challenged notions such as the natural superiority of the high born etc. This is just one example. But both right and left wing thinkers of today build on the philosophies of the past. No one strand of political thought has a monopoly of intelligent people. Although I'm left wing, I recognise there are both stupid and intelligent people on both sides.

(4)I pay taxes, and I don't regard paying taxes as serfdom. In serfdom 100% of the product of my labour goes to the fuedal lord who uses it for his private interest. And I have no say in how its used.

When I pay taxes (which amount to less than 100% of the product of my labour) they go towards maintaining services in a society that I have a say (through my vote) how its run.

1: Yes, I would agree the number of actual Christians is much lower than those who profess, a la Sharpton.

2: They may say those things, but they would be wrong. It's a matter of objective truth. But I will grant that they may be of good will, simply wrong.

3: I concede that some things may be taken in our current context to be left-wing, but they are incidental. Aristotle also believed that some people were born slaves, and it was immoral to treat them otherwise. Not that I'm arguing for slavery, but it's not fair to label him as an egalitarian in the modern sense.

4: The average peasant, after the Dark Ages and through the late Middle Ages paid taxes on average of 10%, even after the rise of the middle class. Some areas also paid a mandatory 10% to the parish. That's 20%, on average, total. In the U.S. we average 40%, and we're on the low end of the spectrum. You may have a say in things, but you would have had a say what services you spent it on before the government stole it. You'd just spend it where you wanted to, and the most popular services would survive. Now that's democracy.

 

[Mise]

@aaron: You're right, I AM confusing morality and legality because I don't see the difference. Surely, if a law is immoral, then it should be scrapped. And if a moral is illegal, it is also immoral. In other words, laws are based on morals, specifically, religious morals. I don't know what the ten commandments are, but I bet they're all incorporated into our legal system somehow.

@Japher: I can't help thinking you're being sarcastic. All the time. "Ditch their ignorant and selfish ways... Register Republican"

 

[Japher]

Politics will be the downfall of man... do as I say, not as I do, and I reserve the rights to change what I say and lie about what I do only so that I can make you believe as if I care.

IMO, Liberals do that sort of thing the best, and that's the only reason Republicans look as bad as they are; because we are comparing them to crap that believes they don't stink.

 

[cgannon64]

To quote Jesus from South Park on gay marriage: "****, I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole."

That's what Jesus would say about modern politics, too.

 

[storealex]

It's profittable for society to redistribute to a certain extent. Every man for himself equals waste, since the unfortunate will never be given the chance to contribute as much as they would under better circumstances.
This should be pure logic for all. The only question is how much redistribution is morally and economically sound.
________
Body science

 

[amadeus]

I kinda hope somebody sets fire to sharp's house. We'll see if he's thankful that somebody else's money was used to fund a firefighting force to help him. or maybe not...thats his problem. he'd just be #### out of luck

Congratulations. That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

 

[Archer 007]

Slightly more approriate than argueing about the political leanings of a person, probably fictitious, who who lived 2000 years ago.

While he isnt revelent to the debate, he surely wasnt fake.

 

[cgannon64]

Sharpe, you do support publicly funded fire and police forces, right?

If not....damn.

 

[RedWolf]

rm, you're a jerk,
Moderator Action: Make your point without flaming. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
and there is no question about it. Had it of not been for 'hand outs' and 'free' education, I wouldn't be where I am today. My mom does drugs and doesn't work... There is never money in the household except a petty 150 child support. If it wasn't for our US 'hand outs', I would've lived on the streets because of my mother. I would've never had the vaccinations that I needed to go to school because I wouldn't have been able to afford them. Bash it all you freaking want, but until you live poor, you shut the hell up.

No point asking those questions... the hard core right doesn't actually care about anybody except themselves.

They care that just maybe because of a social safety net YOU are a more productive citizen and thus more usefull to society as a whole.

The hard-core right opinion is very simple - you're poor and your mom's a drug addict so therefore you deserve to die from starvation or from some completely curable disease due to lack of health care.

And they wonder why some of us are leftists?

(My original post was made BEFORE reading the moderators warning to this thread. I modified it because it COULD have been enterpreted as flaming and I was trying to avoid a banning.. however I've already been quoted below)

 

[amadeus]

No point asing those questions... sharpe doesn't actually care about anybody except himself as he admits in his later posts.

And?

He doesn't care that just maybe because of a social safety net YOU are a more productive citizen and thus more usefull to society as a whole.

What data do you have to support this view? Even if he is more productive, the funds that the state has comes from other people's earnings, and therefore hurts those people's production, does it not?

His opinion is very simple - you're poor and your mom's a drug addict so therefore you deserve to die from starvation or from some completely curable disease due to lack of health care.

I didn't say he deserved anything.

And he wonders why some of us are leftists?

No, I know why, and I've already pointed it out several times.

 

[RedWolf]

And?

And nothing... I was just stating a fact. Most people like to think of themselves as good people but people that admit to caring about only themselves can't really make that claim.

And?
What data do you have to support this view? Even if he is more productive, the funds that the state has comes from other people's earnings, and therefore hurts those people's production, does it not?

So who cares? My point is that society is better off as a whole and isn't that what we all want at the end of the day? To live in a BETTER society?

We aren't just animals that run around with the sole goal of generating as much wealth as possible.. (well some of us do). We do what we do (get up and go to work each day) to contribute and earn money for ourselves to buy the things we enjoy and support our families and go for walks and interact with our fellow human beings that are also doing the same things.

Ever been to a poor dirt hole of a country where the vast majority are terribly poor? Where they have very high crime rates and the rich can't risk walking the streets or where they have armed guards patrolling the tourist resorts? Or where car jacking and kidnapping is the national pas time?

Who wants that kind of life? My point is simply that when society as a whole is better off we're ALL better off... you AND me. regardless of how much "production" is damaged. The point of capitalism isn't to generate as much wealth as possible at ALL costs... our economies exist to benefit us and make our lvies better.

I'd rather pay some taxes and have ALL people be moderately taken care of then live in a society where some poor person is going to kidnap me and send my ear back to my family in an attempt to garner a ransom in order for them to pay for their child's medical bills.

I didn't say he deserved anything.

Why play these games? You didn't say he "deserved" soemthing... you just said "too bad not my problem you can rot". It's the same thing.

 

[amadeus]

And nothing... I was just stating a fact. Most people like to think of themselves as good people but people that admit to caring about only themselves can't really make that claim.

I can and I have. I'm a good person, I just don't believe in the state assaulting me for things that I can be doing voluntarily.

So who cares? My point is that society is better off as a whole and isn't that what we all want at the end of the day? To live in a BETTER society?

A better society is made by people who succeed on their own merits rather than piggyback off of others.

We aren't just animals that run around with the sole goal of generating as much wealth as possible.. (well some of us do). We do what we do (get up and go to work each day) to contribute and earn money for ourselves to buy the things we enjoy and support our families and go for walks and interact with our fellow human beings that are also doing the same things.

I'm afraid I'm not following your point here.

Ever been to a poor dirt hole of a country where the vast majority are terribly poor? Where they have very high crime rates and the rich can't risk walking the streets or where they have armed guards patrolling the tourist resorts? Or where car jacking and kidnapping is the national pas time?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Who wants that kind of life? My point is simply that when society as a whole is better off we're ALL better off... you AND me. regardless of how much "production" is damaged. The point of capitalism isn't to generate as much wealth as possible at ALL costs... our economies exist to benefit us and make our lvies better.

Nobody wants that kind of life, but nobody is forcing them to live that way except themselves. I didn't put them in the shanty town.

The point of capitalism is for you to make your life better, and for me to make mine better. I didn't say that for capitalism to work you had to profit at the expense of others, I'd say that it is on the contrary.

I'd rather pay some taxes and have ALL people be moderately taken care of then live in a society where some poor person is going to kidnap me and send my ear back to my family in an attempt to garner a ransom in order for them to pay for their child's medical bills.

That is what the gated communities are for. If the situation in a country was that dire, I'd have no hesitations on supporting pass laws similar to those formerly used by South Africa. Note that these would not on the basis of race but on economics.

Why play these games? You didn't say he "deserved" soemthing... you just said "too bad not my problem you can rot". It's the same thing.

It isn't a game when you put text in my mouth.