"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
It sounds like Iran politics...
Why Korea as a Civ?
- Thread starter Exsanguination
- Start date
Snarkhunter
Prince
GeneralMeng
Warlord
i dont think koreans invented printing, nor moveable printing
Fiddlin Nero
Prince
Still wondering about a definition for a 'civilization?' I recognize a 'Western Civilization' and a 'Roman Civilization,' other examples? Can anyone name an Eastern/Asian Civilization, a Middle-Eastern Civilization. I'm not just looking for a 'flash in the pan' empire but something that had vague beginnings, growth over generations and a slow fall, something that encompasses nations and states.
WWTVICTOR
Webroamer
The Koreans should not be a civilization.
In the Roman times, Korea was conquered by the Chinese. And afterwards, it was just a satallite of China(I felt sorry for saying that
). Most of the civilizations results are descended from it's neighbour, sometimes it even divided into several kingdoms. It didn't create it's own culture, the firepowder and printing was invented by Chinese, not Koreans. South Korea was very poor in the past(even worse than North Korea), the economic was highly developed not far ago.
In the Roman times, Korea was conquered by the Chinese. And afterwards, it was just a satallite of China(I felt sorry for saying that
). Most of the civilizations results are descended from it's neighbour, sometimes it even divided into several kingdoms. It didn't create it's own culture, the firepowder and printing was invented by Chinese, not Koreans. South Korea was very poor in the past(even worse than North Korea), the economic was highly developed not far ago.WWTVICTOR
Webroamer
The Roman Empire have conquered most of the Europe and the North Africa. However, the Europe is not really BIG, and the North Europe, Netherlands, Northern Germany, the East Europe wasn't conquered by the Romans. The Mongol Empire is relatively big, it includesthe East Europe(history records reviews that they fought with Venice(?), the Russia(European part), the Egypt, the Middle East and Middle Asia, Mongolia(of course), China, India, South-East Asia, till Indonesia.
Fiddlin Nero
Prince
What Mongol Empire, my impression was a father/son rampage that got swallowed up by their conquered civilizations soon after their deaths? Don't "Civilizations" have to be bigger than any one country, I recently read something about Center Nations and Edge Nations all being part of that bigger vague thing identified as civilization.
You be kidding me
Until 15th century Korea got hold of their own literal, they had used Chinese Character run through all their ancient history!
Doctor Joseph Needham had been able to prove that China invent the printing according to a book <MengXiBiTan>. The same word put forward during the Beijing OG by Gutenberg.
Let me tell you what I think.
Ottomans ruled the world for more than 300 years, so they must be included. Arabs should also be included, because that land had played an important part in the history and its where Islam started.
I think either Byzantines or Greece should be eliminated, both are practically the same thing, its like adding Ottomans and Turks in the same time.
America? Netherlands? Countries with great history, starting from 4000 BC, right...
I say Byzantines get replaced by Fatimids, America replaced by Huns, and Netherlands replaced by Almoravids.
Rome isn't the largest empire the world has ever seen. The Golden Horde(Huns, for that matter) had all the land from pacific Russia to Rome itself, pope St. Leo I. talked with Attila and made him leave Rome, and the invasion was stopped. The "greatest" empire that world has ever seen was the Ottoman Empire, and usually American and European teachings today often leap from 1300 to 1700, when actually the Ottoman Empire was very powerful.
Weird thing, we call it the Ottoman Empire, but Ottomans never had Emperors, only Sultans
Ottomans ruled the world for more than 300 years, so they must be included. Arabs should also be included, because that land had played an important part in the history and its where Islam started.
I think either Byzantines or Greece should be eliminated, both are practically the same thing, its like adding Ottomans and Turks in the same time.
America? Netherlands? Countries with great history, starting from 4000 BC, right...
I say Byzantines get replaced by Fatimids, America replaced by Huns, and Netherlands replaced by Almoravids.
Rome isn't the largest empire the world has ever seen. The Golden Horde(Huns, for that matter) had all the land from pacific Russia to Rome itself, pope St. Leo I. talked with Attila and made him leave Rome, and the invasion was stopped. The "greatest" empire that world has ever seen was the Ottoman Empire, and usually American and European teachings today often leap from 1300 to 1700, when actually the Ottoman Empire was very powerful.
Weird thing, we call it the Ottoman Empire, but Ottomans never had Emperors, only Sultans
aukrest
History Buff
There are very few civs that in RL were actually up and running at 4000 BC. Correct me if I'm wrong but its just the Celts, Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, other Mesopotamians, and Greece.
Babylon746
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 109
Well, what we normally call the Celts was an Iron Age civilization, starting not really before ~700-800 BC.
Egypt, Sumer, Babylon - check.
Greece to a certain extent, but it still took some time to evolve into what could be called a civilization.
You forgot the Indus civilization and of course China. And I'm sure I forgot quite some, my archaeology professor is pretty hooked up on a Bulgarian copper age culture...
Egypt, Sumer, Babylon - check.
Greece to a certain extent, but it still took some time to evolve into what could be called a civilization.
You forgot the Indus civilization and of course China. And I'm sure I forgot quite some, my archaeology professor is pretty hooked up on a Bulgarian copper age culture...
ChaosArbiter
King
Ruled the world? The Ottomans? From 1300-1360 they had almost no territory; over the next hundred years they took over Asia Minor and the Balkans, as well as some territory across the Black Sea; over the next 60 years they took over Syria, Egypt, and the area in between as well as the Arabian coast and Algiers; forty years from that saw them take over parts of southeastern Europe, more of North Africa, and the remainder of the Fertile Crescent; after another 120 years or so, they controlled (in addition) Tunisia, more of the coast of the Red Sea (both sides), and the Caucasus.invector said:
Hardly a dominating presence, unless you happened to live in Southeastern Europe or one of the areas they conquered.
aukrest
History Buff
You can't just say the Ottoman Empire was insignificant, they conquered a substantial portion of Europe and the Middle East and influenced the rest of Europe to keep them in check.
Babylon746
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 109
If Sobieski hadn't come to the rescue in 1683 they may well have captured Wien. And the history of at least Middle Europe would have gone very different indeed.
And as Civ is much about what could have happened, keeping them in is entirely justified.
And as Civ is much about what could have happened, keeping them in is entirely justified.
ChaosArbiter
King
Never said they were insignificant, merely that they weren't a dominating presence unless you were their neighbors. For example, two famous things happened in 1453 - first was the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, the other was the end of the Hundred Years' War. If the Turks had been terribly important in the minds of western Europeans, don't you think they'd have tried to do something?
Of course, I don't particularly care about the inclusion/disclusion of any nationality. I just get irritated when someone aggrandizes one or another to absurd degrees. The Ottomans were important within their sphere of influence - but they were hardly worldshaking.
I always forget there were two sieges of Vienna by the Turks ... the 1529 one is the one I always remember.
Of course, I don't particularly care about the inclusion/disclusion of any nationality. I just get irritated when someone aggrandizes one or another to absurd degrees. The Ottomans were important within their sphere of influence - but they were hardly worldshaking.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
May I point out that it was originally bumped from 2002!
Constantinople, Istanbul as today, was besieged by Persia, Muslim Arabs(Emevi), Abbasids, Russia, Hungary, Venice, and Genoa but only the Ottomans succeeded. Ottomans also brought the end of the Eastern Roman Empire, and if they did not get stopped at Vienna by the help of the Polish, they would have captured Rome as well, ending the Roman Empire altogether. However, we shouldn't talk about if's, as there are a lot.
You might not know a lot about the Ottoman Empire, but know this: They were feared.
For my perspective, the world's 3rd greatest empire was the Ottoman, while Roman being first, and Hunnic being second.
You might not know a lot about the Ottoman Empire, but know this: They were feared.
For my perspective, the world's 3rd greatest empire was the Ottoman, while Roman being first, and Hunnic being second.
Whut?? The Byzantine Empire came into being when Rome split in two, the Byzantine Empire being the eastern part. Sure, it inherited a lot of its culture from Greece, but it's not like Greece -> Byzantines. Meh whatever...
It's not all ancient civs in this game. I think the reason why the Netherlands were included was because they did have A LOT of colonies back in the time, and they played an important role in European history from like the 16th century onward.
Rome split in two, one being Western Roman Empire(capital: Rome, civ being Rome) and other being Eastern Roman Empire(capital: Constantinople, civ being Byzantines). Byzantines were annexed by Ottomans in 1453. Greece declared independence in 1821, and they call themselves "sons of Byzantines" like I call myself "son of Ottomans" as I'm Turkish. I know this, because I have Greek friends.
I know, but still, England France Portugal Spain etc always make something big in my mind, while when I hear or read the word "Netherlands" 2 things come to my mind, red light district and Ajax FC, not their historical events.
If we have a Dutch among ourselves, please come forward and convince me that your country was(or is) an important country to be concluded in civ3.
edit: btw, I have been in Netherlands and I love the country. Just the perfect weather for me.
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