Why no chickens?

Cyrus and Darius are nowhere to be seen if we talk about, let's say Alexander. Or any roman emperor. Shaka same story. All chinese emperor stay in China, where european casually try to grab so large an empire that nobody can ever govern that. Or that keep going to conquer some land they were not even sure they existed.

Another thingie : nobody has ever take a land from his inhabitant apart from europeans when they had invaded America. All other take dominion, but at least let the people live. Even before, read what happened to catharism. It may be a personnal taste, but I find that a whole lot more frightful than even the mass execution in China.

The aggressiveness of European is a fact. It does not mean that it's the only explanation, and cheer luck may very well have more to do than that. Or diseases (I have seen people saying that the european people were a lot more dieseases-ridden than other country, including alcohol abuse, and so devastate entire civilisation simply by giving them the diseases without how to handle it) But still.

Well, judging by the control of English and notable bias against Europe, I am going the guess that TLH isn't a Westerner.

I don't deny that Europe and the West's quest for dominion of the world was horrific to say the least, but it honestly drove forward progress. It was progress paid for in Blood as you have so eloquently stated.

As for protecting other nations' histories, I don't think you have a case. China had been subjugating one another, some would say genocidally in some regions, for generations at the time. As for the Middle Eastern nations, internal quibbles and assaults against Europe and through Africa prior to the Great Emergence which leave the area still conflict ridden even to this day, I would hesitate to call it a peaceful society. If I were to make a out-of-place comparison to Civ, I would say that the Western Civilization kneecapped the Middle East early in the game and they have never recovered since Spain was reclaimed.

It is a hard position to argue that progress could have been made without the blood of many as payment. The reason it is a difficult position is that there are few, if any, real world examples of advances made in pursuit of peace. Our best course of action is not to sit around debating history as if it could be changed, but rather to create the real world example that peace and progress are not incompatible.

Chicken is one of the most widely distributed livestock around the world, moreso than beef and pork I would tender to say. It definitely ought to replace something. Maybe we call it "Fowl" instead of chicken since internationally, not all chicken is chicken.
 
Serfdom didn't launch Western society. It sustained it.
fair call.

The Jews were indentured servants, right?
Bit difficult to tell. 'Hibiru' is a generic Egyptian term of contempt, similar to 'barbarian' - so Egyptian records talking about the Hibiru could be talking about the Israelites, or about some other group, or about wandering outcasts: we don't know.
The Israelite flight seems to have been the catalyst for a number of rebellions/escapes though; frex the Sea Peoples/Philistines seem to have been one of the groups that took advantage of Israelite success to bug out (or they'd been forcibly moved to Gaza and took advantage of the troubles to rebel). Losing all of these groups (who seem to have been specialists, frex the Israelites as herders) may have forced the Egyptians to abandon their border colonies, allowing the creation of the new nations - or some other disaster may have triggered both events.

Another thingie : nobody has ever take a land from his inhabitant apart from europeans when they had invaded America. All other take dominion, but at least let the people live.
Okay, this goes beyond garden variety ignorance into what we call 'racism'. For starters, the majority of deaths in the new world were caused by smallpox, not atrocity. And the Amerindians are still around.

The piles of skulls that Ghengis Khan left are still around, as well, but that's about all that's left of his victims. A major cause of the Renaissance was the westward flight of highly educated refugees from Byzantium, fleeing the atrocities inflicted on the city. China was unified when King Chen massacred anyone who opposed him, and imposed draconian laws on all his lands, conquered or not.

That's just what comes to mind; with a little research you will be able to find countless other examples.
 
Well, judging by the control of English and notable bias against Europe, I am going the guess that TLH isn't a Westerner.
I am a westerner, of one of the country that suck the most at learning foreign language. Sorry for that part.
I don't deny that Europe and the West's quest for dominion of the world was horrific to say the least, but it honestly drove forward progress. It was progress paid for in Blood as you have so eloquently stated.

As for protecting other nations' histories, I don't think you have a case. China had been subjugating one another, some would say genocidally in some regions, for generations at the time. As for the Middle Eastern nations, internal quibbles and assaults against Europe and through Africa prior to the Great Emergence which leave the area still conflict ridden even to this day, I would hesitate to call it a peaceful society. If I were to make a out-of-place comparison to Civ, I would say that the Western Civilization kneecapped the Middle East early in the game and they have never recovered since Spain was reclaimed.
I were not trying to say that chinese people were all nice guy. Yet it's very difficult to find an area where Europa were actually bested as far as bloodshed is implied. For every kind of slaughter I have been talked avout, europa were at least close to it at some point of his history, save maybe the cheer number of troop used (and killed) in chineses wars. But IIRC chineses always were (are ?) a lot more numerous.
It is a hard position to argue that progress could have been made without the blood of many as payment. The reason it is a difficult position is that there are few, if any, real world examples of advances made in pursuit of peace. Our best course of action is not to sit around debating history as if it could be changed, but rather to create the real world example that peace and progress are not incompatible.
I agree. Even if I think that european history is one of the worst of all places, most societies are not peaceful one, and nobody can say that a more peaceful way would have been possible.
Chicken is one of the most widely distributed livestock around the world, moreso than beef and pork I would tender to say. It definitely ought to replace something. Maybe we call it "Fowl" instead of chicken since internationally, not all chicken is chicken.

Maybe that europeans chicken are the real reason for which they are so successfull. When we sleep, they come and say world domination plans. And when we woke up, we follow thoses plan - and take chickens with us. COnsequently, they are everywhere now.
 
Okay, this goes beyond garden variety ignorance into what we call 'racism'. For starters, the majority of deaths in the new world were caused by smallpox, not atrocity. And the Amerindians are still around.

It's not. You can't honestly say that during colonization european has done any other thing than take the better spot, and at best left natives to the fringe without regard to what will happen to them, and at worst using them as slaves. Read a little about Belgian congo : it's one of the worst case of colonization. It's real hard to find anything that come near what happened here, except WWII.

There are survivor of natives american. I insist on "survivor" : basically all the native's society had been destroyed. Africa is in a better shape in this case (as far as native are concerned I mean), but still it had been severely damaged.

There have been a lot a slaughter in mankind history. And an awful lot come from european, and a lot of the time by european on european by the way.
 
Maybe that europeans chicken are the real reason for which they are so successfull. When we sleep, they come and say world domination plans. And when we woke up, we follow thoses plan - and take chickens with us. COnsequently, they are everywhere now.

That reminds me of a short SF story I once read where human civilization and technological development was all a grand plot by grain to get us to carry them to other worlds.
 
Chicken is one of the most widely distributed livestock around the world, moreso than beef and pork I would tender to say. It definitely ought to replace something. Maybe we call it "Fowl" instead of chicken since internationally, not all chicken is chicken.
Agreed with everything you wrote, but would like to talk about this. The broader we make the definition, the wider the variety of terrains where they can be found - duck, ostrich/emu, pheasant etc all have their own niches. If Fowl becomes a resource that can be traded, then it need to be species that can be easily spread/domesticated, while if it is just a bonus to the square, it can include any species that adds substantially to the local food supply.

Which would be better?
 
This whole discussion of poultry, and warlike tendencies reminds me of this tale.

November 1945 - WWII occupation of Japan. For the Marine Corps birthday, a turkey dinner is traditionally served. So the Marines shipped in a bunch of big ol' turkeys, and a detail of Marines were busy slaughtering them, while a large group of curious Japanese gathered around. Now the Japanese had scrawny chickens, but nothing like a 20 pound turkey. So this one Marines holds up a turkey to the crowd and says "You see this you Jap bastards, this is an American Chicken, and that's why you lost".

Paraphrased from "Semper Fi, Mac".
 
If it wasn't for steel fenceposts and electrical barbed wire, it would be impossible for modern bison ranchers to keep them from wandering away.

This is a product of the modern form of animal husbandry, though, which involves animals being left out to wander in a field by themselves. Sheep follow shepherds without electric fences, and cattle can be herded without fences.

but if it's too aggressive towards humans, it won't work - look at the zebra. Never domesticated, despite being very similar to the horse. People in modern times have attempted to domesticate the zebra, and have had no luck, becaus zebras are just mean.

I know, and that's why I noted that it would be much harder to domesticate mountain goats. But bison aren't mean. I live next to a bison farm and the bison raised there are essentially as tame as holsteins. Wild bison won't let you walk up to them and pet them, of course, but the same thing is true with feral donkeys and horses. (I don't pet the bison, but the people who own the farm -and thus feed them- do.)
 
Agreed with everything you wrote, but would like to talk about this. The broader we make the definition, the wider the variety of terrains where they can be found - duck, ostrich/emu, pheasant etc all have their own niches. If Fowl becomes a resource that can be traded, then it need to be species that can be easily spread/domesticated, while if it is just a bonus to the square, it can include any species that adds substantially to the local food supply.

Which would be better?

Fowl flies... except chickens. This means we fowl can act like oil and be on water tiles. Probably lake instead of ocean though, I don't eat seagull. Ostrich on the plain, and chicken in the grassland. Ducks in lakes! It would probably require a special worker ability from animal husbandry, but that could be interesting, too.
 
On the subject of "who's worse, the europeans or everyone else?", it's important to note that the history of mankind, ALL mankind, is a tale of war and exploitation. Every major power rose there by stepping on someone on the way up, and stepping on more people to stay in power. On a large scale, might has always made right and will always continue to do so. So when a large technological boom (brought on by centuries of constant warfare) left europeans light years ahead of the rest of the (newly discovered) world, they leveraged it for maximum gain. They would have been fools to do any different.

To oversimplify, imagine you're playing civ on a terra map and you and all your neighbors are at tech parity with crossbows and maces and no room for expansion. Then you find the new world, huge tracts of unclaimed land, overflowing with resources, and defended by barbarian warriors and archers. Do you: a) declare war on your neighbor and hope none of your cities are razed. b) send an invincible army oversseas to attack at >99% odds with nothing but a few units to lose. or c) Lament that you can't trade with the barbarians and leave them be so that you neighbor can conquer them, and then later probably conquer you too.

It's a no-brainer. World leaders throughout history have not achieved that status by saying "i'll be happy with what i have"; at least not world leaders that are remembered. They achieved it by taking what they could, starting with what's easiest to take. The only difference between european conquests and others is that the europeans had the technological and financial means of stretching further. Non european rulers from genghis khan down to the lowliest tribal chief have also set out to conquer the world, and like the europeans, they only stopped when they exceeded their limits; just their limits were alot smaller, that's all. it's not some moral difference or genetic superiority, just a technical deficiency that is the distinction.

It's easy to look back with our 21st century eyes and say they should have played nice and respected the soverignty of the people of the world, engaged in free trade, and sang kumbaya; but that is simply not a realistic view of the world. Smart leaders (when playing against human, not AI foes) produce warriors before workers.
 
Bison are nowhere near as easy to domesticate as the ancestors of the cow are. They are very aggressive, even the females. Even today, with modern fencing technology, people raising bison have a lot of trouble keeping them contained. It would have been impossible for Neolithic people to pen and raise bison.

Aggression is a very easy trait to breed out of animals, because we do so without thinking about it: anytime a creature attacks us, we kill it. Granted wolves aren't nearly as aggressive as their rep, but turning them into dogs was still an impressive feat.

Most early domestication was accidental; dogs are the result of the creation of the rubbish heap, herd animals are the result of raising grain. The original fences were to keep cattle *out*, not in. You try farming near wild cattle, and sooner or later you will end up with a fence around ruined crops and some smug, full cattle. If you want to eat, you'll fix that fence and kill the first animal that tries to leave. (Fortunately, the remains of your crops and the protection from predators will reduce their desire to leave, as will a campfire in a weak point).

Another consideration is "omega" herd members. The animals at the bottom of the herd's pecking order are afraid of being excluded, and eager to please - these animals are easily domesticated. Species who have never been domesticated normally don't have a herd or pack structure, and so don't have Omega members, making domestication harder (zebras being a case in point).

When using arguments about whether something is too large or tough to domesticate, it'd be good if you could give their mass compared to that of an Asiatic elephant: given the elephant was domesticated in prehistoric times.
 
Aggression is a very easy trait to breed out of animals, because we do so without thinking about it: anytime a creature attacks us, we kill it. Granted wolves aren't nearly as aggressive as their rep, but turning them into dogs was still an impressive feat.

Most early domestication was accidental; dogs are the result of the creation of the rubbish heap, herd animals are the result of raising grain. The original fences were to keep cattle *out*, not in. You try farming near wild cattle, and sooner or later you will end up with a fence around ruined crops and some smug, full cattle. If you want to eat, you'll fix that fence and kill the first animal that tries to leave. (Fortunately, the remains of your crops and the protection from predators will reduce their desire to leave, as will a campfire in a weak point).

Another consideration is "omega" herd members. The animals at the bottom of the herd's pecking order are afraid of being excluded, and eager to please - these animals are easily domesticated. Species who have never been domesticated normally don't have a herd or pack structure, and so don't have Omega members, making domestication harder (zebras being a case in point).

When using arguments about whether something is too large or tough to domesticate, it'd be good if you could give their mass compared to that of an Asiatic elephant: given the elephant was domesticated in prehistoric times.

The Asiatic elephant was never domesticated. They've been capturing wild ones and training them to work for a long time, but there's never been a prolonged breeding program using selective breeding to modify them from the wild version.

Wolves adapted naturally (natural selection) to live in a sort of symbiosis with humans a long time before they were domesticated (when WE started selectively breeding them for certain traits). There is genetic evidence that the wolves that were later domesticated diverged from the general wolf population as much as 60,000 years ago.
 
As for Pyramids and Slavery, I am probably misreading history. The Jews were indentured servants, right?

There is virtually no archaeological evidence to show that the Hebrews ever had a notable population in Egypt. The myth about Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt was probably written during the Babylonian Captivity (which there IS historical evidence of) to essentially say "We were in this exact situation before, and God got us out of it".

The Great Pyramids were not built by slave labor. They were built by workers hired between the farming seasons to keep the population busy.
 
There is virtually no archaeological evidence to show that the Hebrews ever had a notable population in Egypt. The myth about Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt was probably written during the Babylonian Captivity (which there IS historical evidence of) to essentially say "We were in this exact situation before, and God got us out of it".

The Great Pyramids were not built by slave labor. They were built by workers hired between the farming seasons to keep the population busy.

Hmm. Interesting. I always thought blood was the mortar of the Pyramids. I guess I should go back and brush up on some Egyptology.
 
There is virtually no archaeological evidence to show that the Hebrews ever had a notable population in Egypt. The myth about Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt was probably written during the Babylonian Captivity
The current copies were probably written *down* in Babylon, yes. But there are all sorts of strangenesses is the stories that don't make sense unless there are far older than that. IIRC, about half of the figures given in Numbers are in base 12, the other half in base 10 - if the stories had been written in Babylon they'd all be in base 60. And the Egyptian had gone from base 12 to base 10 by about 2700BC. (It's been a while since I've looked at this though, so usual caution).

Arguing from absence in archaeology is a very bad idea, as so little survives - and given the Israelites were herders not builders, there'd be even less than normal.
Also, be careful with the term 'Hebrew', unless you are talking about a specific century and location. 'Hibiru' is Egyptian, 'ebrai' is Aramaic, and they have different meanings.
 
This is a product of the modern form of animal husbandry, though, which involves animals being left out to wander in a field by themselves. Sheep follow shepherds without electric fences, and cattle can be herded without fences.



I know, and that's why I noted that it would be much harder to domesticate mountain goats. But bison aren't mean. I live next to a bison farm and the bison raised there are essentially as tame as holsteins. Wild bison won't let you walk up to them and pet them, of course, but the same thing is true with feral donkeys and horses. (I don't pet the bison, but the people who own the farm -and thus feed them- do.)

Molybdeus, I highly recommend you read Guns, Germs, & Steal.

Especially the chapter Zebras, Unhappy Marriages, and the Anna Karenina Principle.

Every single point you bring up is addressed there, and trying to paraphrase it would be a disservice.
 
The Asiatic elephant was never domesticated. They've been capturing wild ones and training them to work for a long time, but there's never been a prolonged breeding program using selective breeding to modify them from the wild version.

This is am important distinction. Many people don't understand the difference between domesticating and taming. Many animals that have never been domesticated, like the elephant, have nevertheless been tamed in vast numbers and trained to assist us with various tasks. These trained animals have had important historical significance (Hannibal crossing the alps, anyone?) but it does not change the fact that due to resistance to captive breeding and other factors, we have never successfully adapted elephants (and many other easily tamed species), to meet our needs and they cannot accurately be called domesticated animals.

The same thing is true with many plants that remain unadapted in modern times despite, in some cases, our best efforts. Acorns have been an important part of many cultures diets, and even though many of these cultures did develop or acquire agriculture - which is really just the systematic process of husbanding domesticated plants - there remains no such thing as a domesticated oak tree.

Wolves adapted naturally (natural selection) to live in a sort of symbiosis with humans a long time before they were domesticated (when WE started selectively breeding them for certain traits). There is genetic evidence that the wolves that were later domesticated diverged from the general wolf population as much as 60,000 years ago.

It is also important to note that although the actions of humans that exerted adaptive pressure on the wolf population were not consciously undertaken by humans in order to achieve a better result (friendlier wolves), this is still an important part of the domestication process.

Again, lets look at plants. Early hunter-gatherers would be more or less nomadic depending on local availability of gatherable foodstuffs and habits of huntable animals in their environment. Imagine a group living in the fertile crescent 13,000 years ago that, due to favorable conditions, would live in the same place for more than half of the year and return to the same permanent/semipermanent living place every year. This site is near some hills which are overgrown with the wild ancestor of wheat. These humans would harvest the seeds to eat to supplement their diet during the part of the year when the wheat ripens. Due to lacking adequate storage and preservation techniques, some of this wheat would sprout in storage and be discarded as unsuitable for eating. Although the food is ruined from a human consumption standpoint, it is still a perfectly viable organism and would grow in abundance around the nearby location of disposal.

Now, these humans cannot possibly harvest all the wild wheat growing in the area, so they prioritize harvesting the most desirable specimens (i.e. those with the largest seeds) as a matter of efficiency. They also necessarily start harvesting early-ripening wheat before any other wheat, and collect more of the wheat that stays ripe on the stalk for longer than other stalks. The effect of this is that the new wheat fields around the sites where these humans live, formed by discarding sprouting specimens and even defecating unchewed specimens (most seeds can survive this, or even depend on it for those spread by birds) contain primarily the descendants of plants that had qualities desirable to the humans harvesting them - large seeds, early ripening cycle, longer harvesting opportunity. Even though the humans were just doing what seemed best at the time when harvesting this wheat and discarding the portion they could not prevent from sprouting, they were having a selective effect on the inherited qualities of the nearby wheat population. Essentially, without even knowing it, and aided by the process of natural selection, humans started to domesticate wheat unintentionally, which eased the transition to agriculture as a primary means of producing calories.

Molybdeus, I highly recommend you read Guns, Germs, & Steal.

Especially the chapter Zebras, Unhappy Marriages, and the Anna Karenina Principle.

Every single point you bring up is addressed there, and trying to paraphrase it would be a disservice.

I agree with your book recommendation, but disagree with you assertion that paraphrasing it (as I have done with other sections above) would be a disservice, whether out of a fear of unintentionally perpetuating inaccurate information or somehow "stealing credit" for another's ideas. If I took anything from that book it is that you can't stop the spread of beneficial ideas.

If you are anything like me, reading that book re-invigorated your interest in playing Civilization. Although it highlights some of the more absurd departures from realism present in the game, it succinctly summarizes the fascinating nature of the progress of human development, and in particular the eventual dominance of a few cultures (Europeans) over many others, which is in turn the focus and appeal of the game.
 
^^ I think he meant "to paraphrase would be a disservice" because its such a great read, anything he could write wouldn't compare. Somewhat of a discreet compliment, I think.

If you like G,G&S check out Collapse! by J Diamond too. That was another book that kinda turned me back on to Civ... if mostly because of the historical factor. And because I'm the one who makes Monty go extinct in the games I play :D
 
The current copies were probably written *down* in Babylon, yes. But there are all sorts of strangenesses is the stories that don't make sense unless there are far older than that. IIRC, about half of the figures given in Numbers are in base 12, the other half in base 10 - if the stories had been written in Babylon they'd all be in base 60. And the Egyptian had gone from base 12 to base 10 by about 2700BC. (It's been a while since I've looked at this though, so usual caution).

Arguing from absence in archaeology is a very bad idea, as so little survives - and given the Israelites were herders not builders, there'd be even less than normal.
Also, be careful with the term 'Hebrew', unless you are talking about a specific century and location. 'Hibiru' is Egyptian, 'ebrai' is Aramaic, and they have different meanings.


Even herders use pots and other implements that end up being dug out of ancient trash heaps, and not one item of Israelite manufacture has been found in Egypt from that time period. Not one. If hundreds of thousands of Jews were in Egypt for 400 years, they somehow did so without leaving a single trace of their presence.

Sadly, a lot of what was believed about Egypt for years came from mythical accounts from people who were never there. Thus the ongoing belief that the Egyptians relied on slave labor for their great projects when the archaeological evidence indicates that they were not.
 
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