Why redcoats?

[Etheric]

Well ok I am going to jump on the historical bandwagon. The Americans joined WW1 in 1917, the war was over in 1918. The effect was to change from a war the germans were losing (they were pretty effectively blockaded, the RN again, and starving to death), to a war they had no hope whatsoever of winning - it was war of attrittion in any case, and adding the american so the mix meant there was no hope any more. The war ended with a stalemate in belgium and terrible stuffering in the german population due to the blockades. (This is related to why ww2 started, as the germans "were winning" in terms of territory, so the new leadership could point to that, and say the german people were sold out, with a lot of teh blame being put on the Jews.)

Clearly the American intervention in WW2 was decisive. I do think people forget just how isolationist the US was before WW2 though. WW2 was the point when teh US become a superpower though, before that they were a great power, but not a standout one.

The war of 1812 was basically a draw, even the US tactics military handbook says so, althoguh the main casus belli of the british navy press ganging american sailors was stopped.

I guess an improved ship of the line might be appropriate to showcase Royal Navy domiance of the eara. The biggest advantage was superior numbers and training thoguh I think (the french navy of the time spent a lot of time holed up in port, blockaded so could not spend much time at see training).

It has to be said though that the british army of the time, althogh small (because the navy took priority and was huge), was also all volunteer and very high quality. The peak of the british empire (when it was 1/5 of the worlds surface and 1/4 of the world's population) was definately the time of the redcoat. I guess the british wars of the time, in India, the crimea and africa (althoguh alot of the african ones were mowing down natives with machine guns).

And I do agree that naval power can be decisive, I had fun mowing down attacking galleons etc when people were trying to invade my continant. I do think there is a problem with naval power in that there is nothing between ship of the line and destroyer (in terms of ocean going stuff anyway), but that is a different thread .

 

[Culture Bomb]

If England was to get a naval UU, maybe it should be an Ironclad replacement that could cross oceans and had more moves.

Another possibility would be the Spitfire as a fighter replacement, although that came at the time of Britain's decline as a world power.

Possible American UUs - Some kind of Gunship replacement that can also transport troops? (Ok, I've watched Apocalypse Now too many times, but as far as I know the USA was the first to make large scale use of helicopter-based units.)

Alternatively, maybe give all other civs a generic 'advanced bomber' and have the Stealth Bomber as an American UU, as only the US has fully developed stealth technology.

If there were to be an ICBM based UU, maybe it could be something like MIRV with multiple warheads, able to target more than one location, though that might be overpowered.

 

[King Flevance]

Apart from WW2 America has ruled the world culturally and economically more than anything else, so some kind of unique corporate executive unit might be more appropriate. How about execs that are unblockable by civics and spread the corp for free, or at least cheap.

Edit: Sorry, that was off-topic! I think the redcoat is perfect for England

This would actually be pretty cool. I was always fond of the F-15s though. I always thought minute men would be cool for America too.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

I guess they went with the Redcoats because so many players fight land wars, but I thought of a few more:

1. Royal Marine Commandos
2. Dreadnought battleships
3. Lancaster bombers (effective by night)
4. Midget submarines (X-Craft)
5. Spitfire fighters (short range, but excellent strength)
6. Gurkha Infantry (mountain troops, skilled on attack)
7. NAAFI Stores (Tea keeps Britain going)

Some possible wonders/buildings

1. BBC World Service (Similar to broadcast towers)
2. Cricket Grounds (replacing the Colosseum)
3. London Transport (the Underground and double-decker buses replace public transportation)

 

[Kid R]

3. London Transport (the Underground and double-decker buses replace public transportation)

Adds unhappiness to city ("it's too crowded!") but doubles up as bomb shelter.

[Londoner returns to morning cup of tea]

 

[ZeroM]

If you really wanted to pick the US's true unique unit, it really is the simple infantryman/grunt. He has had the most impact on America's miltary successes in my opinion. But you couldn't really make infantry a UU so I would have liked to have seen an Army Ranger/Special Forces/Marine Raider UU, and keep the standard Marine unit that everyone else has.

I'd also like to have seen Air Cav in the game, but that's a personal bias.

 

[ZeroM]

If England was to get a naval UU, maybe it should be an Ironclad replacement that could cross oceans and had more moves.

Another possibility would be the Spitfire as a fighter replacement, although that came at the time of Britain's decline as a world power.

Possible American UUs - Some kind of Gunship replacement that can also transport troops? (Ok, I've watched Apocalypse Now too many times, but as far as I know the USA was the first to make large scale use of helicopter-based units.)

Alternatively, maybe give all other civs a generic 'advanced bomber' and have the Stealth Bomber as an American UU, as only the US has fully developed stealth technology.

If there were to be an ICBM based UU, maybe it could be something like MIRV with multiple warheads, able to target more than one location, though that might be overpowered.

I'd make the B52 UU over Stealth.

 

[Cosmos1985]

Go play RFC, there you'll get the British naval power represented

 

[Tristan_C]

When gameplay is concerned, the redcoat invites the player to adopt an unmistakably British strategy. Turtle along, and then unleash the fury during your industrial era. Your navy will still even be wooden at this point. Having a unique wooden ship or longbowmen would not allow such a vivid reenactment directly. The civ also comes with an absolute top-tier leader for island starts.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Bombers are quite terrible vs fighters, which come sooner...not so hot vs competently used (aka reasonably massed with 70% intercept) SAMs either.

That fighters can be massed infinitely into one area and bombers can not do so does not help. Bombers essentially get scr00d, as enough fighters to overpower the enemy fighters quickly becomes enough to flatten defenders to 50% strength, where even era-behind troops will win out.

If your fighters are better promoted than the opposing fighters then you simply use your fighters to target terrain improvements. The enemy fighters will intercept and die giving you more promotions and then your bombers can do their job.

If you get better promoted fighters/stealth fighters you can remove enemy airpower in next to no time and there is no way for them to reclaim it as you'll have vastly better promoted planes

 

[TrailblazingScot]

On the issue of UU...the American one is pretty awful. There are lots of units in the time period that can take it down and it doesn't have an ability that makes it significantly better and it should given how long the American civ has to wait for their UU.

For an American UU...superior aircraft carriers, your ones are super massive, no one elses comes close and nothing else epitomises American strength more than your aircraft carriers today and since WW2.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If your fighters are better promoted than the opposing fighters then you simply use your fighters to target terrain improvements. The enemy fighters will intercept and die giving you more promotions and then your bombers can do their job.

If you get better promoted fighters/stealth fighters you can remove enemy airpower in next to no time and there is no way for them to reclaim it as you'll have vastly better promoted planes

There is no reason to avoid attacking enemy troops just so that the bombers can do it .

You didn't refute my point one bit. Once the fighters win the initial battle vs AI air, you usually have enough (often more than enough) to flatten defenders to 50%. Sending fighters to do something else when you're taking the cities is no better than saying that you can go send cavalry to pillage tiles after the defenders are weak ----> nonsense. Just kill the troops and take the city.

It's not like enemy fighters don't intercept if you try to air strike the tile they're on.

Edit: and yes, given the value-over base and the duration one must wait for them, the American and German UUs are trash.

 

[kristopherb]

I think england should get the longbowmen over the redcoat too but the pro-redcoats arguements have got me to an extent. I think a second uu for all civs whould be awesome and the redcoat should be the 2nd for england and the first being the longbowmen.
Lets assume there is a UU longbowmen whould this be ballanced?
UU-longbowmen
6str
25% hills and cities
50% vs mellee
at crossbowmens hammer rate.

 

[Kid R]

I think that would be too powerful, especially as England already has a top UU. Two UUs is a neat idea though, or even 3, say one for the beginning, one for the middle game and one for end game. Might even things up a bit where some civs like Germany may as well have no UU right now.

There could be a common theme running through them too - Saladin could have camel chariots, the current camel archers, and camel gunships say.

England: red loincloth, red coat, red mech suit.

Khmer could even keep its claim to the weakest 3 UUs of all: ballista beaver, ballista elephant, ballista ballistic missile.

 

[Deckhand]

^

 

[kristopherb]

I second ballista beaver!..

 

[Tristan_C]

I think fewer women would play civ if there were ballista beavers and red loincloths. Or would they play more? It can be hard to predict.

 

[noto2]

This has bugged me in civ4 since I started playing. Why redcoats? I always thought England was more known for there longbow men. Also instead of cavalry America should get cowboys who do bonus damage to sitting bull.

@the cowboy idea: ROFL

 

[noto2]

About the UU's: I actually think the redcoat is a great UU for England. There is already a superior wooden ship in the game - the ship of the line. Historically the redcoat makes as much sense as a ship UU, because it represents the time in history where the British empire was at its peak. But for gameplay purposes ships are usually underwhelming compared to land units. You can make use of most land units most of the time, but having a ship UU is frustrating because it's so situational. That's why the naval UU's that you do see are given certain strategic advantages, rather than just a boost to their combat abilities. Even then, the Dutch and Portuguese UU's are highly situational, often they don't make any difference to the game.
I feel the same for America's UU. While it make sense to give America a jet fighter UU, the F-15, like in Civ 3, the problem is that it wouldn't add anything to the game in 90%+ of games. I thought America should get a 2nd UB instead, a replacement for the spy agency that gave an extra XP point to units built in that city. However, someone mentioned a corporate UU and I remembered that India has a worker UU. An economic UU might suit America better. They could get a worker that works 25% faster, or is significantly cheaper than a regular worker, or has a defensive value like a scout and can be upgraded. Hmm...what about that? Imagine a worker that start with 2 strength, but can only defend. Then you can upgrade it over time, for free, it could get 4 str with feudalism and 8 with gunpowder (becoming a minuteman) all the way to 16 str with assembly line, etc. That way you'd have these workers all over your empire, improving the land, but in a pinch they could be used to defend cities. Admittedly it wouldn't be the hottest UU in the game, but the Navy SEAL is even worse.
Then again, I'm quite unimpressed with UU's and UB's in the game as a whole. I would think if I were designing a game of Civ I'd make later UU's and UB's stronger than earlier ones, to compensate for the fact that they have less of an impact on the game. The mall comes so late...it should be even better. Ditto for the assembly plant and shale plant. If America were to get a really late UU, like an F-15, I think it ought to be extremely powerful, a unit that has the potential to be game-breaking, like the praetorian.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

It's not like enemy fighters don't intercept if you try to air strike the tile they're on.

You misunderstand then.

You WANT them to try to intercept your fighters. Doing a tile improvement is so you aren't at risk from SAM.

With better promoted fighters you'll win the interception dogfight, clear the skies and then the bombers can attack without fear of fighters interecepting them.