Why should we view demographics for free

[Alexey86]

I always hated the fact that we can see anytime and how many times we want the demographics screen. Are we behind in science?.. ou lets build more science structures. Let's see how strong our army is, who has the biggest, the weakest, etc.


I wanted that screen eliminated to keep you more in the dark and put more uses to espionage where you can spy to gain your info. However you select wich ones you want to view, your neighbours, your strong enemys or the ones you are about to attack! Depending on your espionage developement also how strong the info you get, how accurate.

Espionage always needed a revamp, a boost, take it to the next level same as religion evolved.

Do you players really enjoy having that info for free?

 

[Dearmad]

I agree in general. However it would be a nice option to have as some games I want to watch everything. But for the most part, I don't access that information and try to read what I would more reasonably know if I were the leader of my civ.

 

[Acken]

I know i probably wouldnt pay for it if there is an opportunity cost. So in a way they could for example add an isolated system where you chose what you want to know. But i wouldnt pay gold for it for example.

That said considering the popularity of info addict I dont believe it would ve popular among players to have less access to that.

 

[Krajzen]

I always enjoy having as many statistics in the video game as possible, because I am crazy about statistical data and I especially enjoy comparing countries. This urge is stronger in me than any problems of gameplay or immersion

As for the other people, I don't know but keep in mind that Info Addict (civ5 mod providing all possible kinds of data on all discovered civs) was the second most popular mod ever in the very active modding community of this game so I guess there are many people that share my sentiment.

From the realism point of view - think for a moment. In the modern day every average person can know data (size of economy, military, science, strengths, weaknesses) of any country on Earth. Of course we don't know 'important secret details' but we know everything covered by civ demographics screen thanks to public global Internet sites. In the pre-Internet eras there were statistical estimates and rulers certainly had general knowledge 'what's going in the world' 'how high population and military France has in general' without the need of specifically sending spies.

Personally I'd like no demographics data in the very beginning of game, and then with eras slow unlocking of more detailed data, until by the end game you can see every $ GDP dollar of every nation, as it is IRL. That'd be a nice touch modeling the growing data flow and general advancement (plus there's a lot more to track by late game than early game).
In this model, of course, crucial secret data (plans, secret military projects) would still be unknown, and that'd be the matter of spies, along various act of sabotage and uncovering fog of war from neutral-hostile nations.

 

[Atlas627]

I would prefer less access to it. Make it an interesting choice to get that info.

And make the info more valuable so it can also have more steps along the way. Incremental value. I can invest in just the parts I want.

It seems that espionage is already doing some of this, by giving you access to stats from the fog of war. This is like demographics, and is still useful against human opponents.

 

[Liex]

I'm with you, Information could be made into an interesting, active gameplay element.

I think we should be kept in the dark, at least in the earlier eras. But espionage shouldn't be the only way to gather information: diplomacy, trade routes, great people, there are different ways to make this work. Like, when a trade route expires, your traders tell you something about the civilization they were trading with. Or when you retire your Great Generals, they provide a list of the "Pointiest Sticks".

But I'm not sure about inaccurate information, sounds like it's more trouble than fun.

 

[Aristos]

I know i probably wouldnt pay for it if there is an opportunity cost. So in a way they could for example add an isolated system where you chose what you want to know. But i wouldnt pay gold for it for example.

That said considering the popularity of info addict I dont believe it would ve popular among players to have less access to that.

Well, many of us consider IA bordering(crossing?) on cheating due to its display of information that is NOT available in unmodded game (not even for the AI: example, Military strength).

Civ4 is better in that respect; you have to invest in espionage if you want to see some critical information (and the same was true for the AI.

 

[Acken]

But the result was often people not investing for that purpose.

I don't mind a different system, I'm just saying it shouldn't be at the cost of something else otherwise players won't invest in it.

The reason is pretty simple. You are better using your ressources at getting stronger rather than knowing how weak you are. You can also have partial information just from observation. My point is just that it needs to be isolated to be a good system.

 

[ftl]

Civ 6 actually extremely well placed to do this with the diplomacy system. They can make countries get added to your demographics only after you reach a certain access level! That would be both immersive and unobtrusive. That level would be pretty low, it's not like the total size of an empire is some big secret.

It's a neat idea. I like it.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions

 

[m15a]

In theory, I agree with what the OP is saying. However, in practice, the value I get out of the demographics screen is not entirely strategic - I look at it just for fun (immersion or whatever) - and I wouldn't want to pay a price for a non-strategic benefit.

The Civ V demographic screen (although also being strategically valuable) is largely geared towards that - it gives you a sense of how your empire is doing and a goal of where your civ could potentially be (or what civ to hate because they're better than you), without giving the full details on all civs. More specific data that would be more geared specifically to strategic decisions (e.g., the specific techs a civ has, types and numbers of units, etc.) are not on that screen and might be worth devoting resources towards.

 

[Ryika]

In general hiding information behind an opportunity cost is not fun. The decision to either get some "real benefit" out of your spies (or whatever) or some strategical information that you sort of kind of already assumed to be the case is a frustrating one, risk-reward of the worst kind, because you'll always try to play as "blind" as possible to get as many "real" benefits as you can, which ultimately leads to non-reactive gameplay.

In my opinion as much information (or rather "statistics") as possible should be available as easy as possible to allow players make informed decisions, alter their strategies and react to what is happening in the world.

 

[Magil]

I think they could tie this into the "access level" and "gossip system", as long as they don't make it too inconvenient to gain access to. It would make sense, at least. After all, there are presumably other benefits to increasing your access level besides simply seeing demographics.

I don't think we should be kept utterly in the dark. This is a strategy game, after all, and information is a good thing. I wouldn't mind having to work a bit for it and making getting that info part of the game, but the opportunity cost shouldn't be overly high. I think gossip/espionage is a perfect place for it.

 

[Xandinho]

I love demographic information, and to compare the civs.

I would like to see rankings of the military contingent, economy, territory, population and tourist on all civs.

List of the largest and richest cities in the world.

All this would make the game more interesting.

 

[Atlas627]

In general hiding information behind an opportunity cost is not fun. The decision to either get some "real benefit" out of your spies (or whatever) or some strategical information that you sort of kind of already assumed to be the case is a frustrating one, risk-reward of the worst kind, because you'll always try to play as "blind" as possible to get as many "real" benefits as you can, which ultimately leads to non-reactive gameplay.

In my opinion as much information (or rather "statistics") as possible should be available as easy as possible to allow players make informed decisions, alter their strategies and react to what is happening in the world.

If you think that everyone will try to play every game optimally and blind, then what are you going to do about the risk of building a wonder?

Spies should not be getting you stats, diplomatic access should. And since that already provides other benefits (spy abilities), then it isnt such a huge opportunity cost on its own that people avoid it.

Of course, the opportunity cost of investing in diplomatic access would have to include getting that info, but info has value. The fact that all players can disagree on the value of that info (0 - pure entertainment, a lot - critical) makes it no different from any other risk/reward mechanic.

 

[Ryika]

If you think that everyone will try to play every game optimally and blind, then what are you going to do about the risk of building a wonder

In a way it's the same thing, just that you don't have much of a choice other than playing blind.

But I actually think the idea that was proposed for the demographics would work very well for wonders. At least for those of us who play without reloading when they're beat in a wonder race it would make a lot of sense to be able to invest something in order to understand whether it makes sense to invest into a wonder, if I have to invest heavily or if I can keep my city growing and get still the wonder.

That's the sort of "instant information" that is actually useful and can, correctly handled, return a profit on average. And maybe most importantly, you can't "delay" getting the information like you'd try to with the demographics. You need the information the moment you arrive at the decision of whether to try building the wonder or not. So it's really a binary thing: Do I gamble, or do I get the information? And you get a positive feeling instantly, no matter what happens. Opponent is building the wonder already? That sucks, but at least I didn't invest in it. Nobody is building it? Great, I can start building it casually. Somebody is building it, but slowly? Well, better put in as much production as I can. There's literally no scenario where you're not in some way happy about the information that you get.

With the demographics it's completely different, you'd constantly be trying to juuuuuust get by a little longer, or to just grab as little information as needed, and in the end, you'd probably either feel dumb for investing and seeing what you already knew, or you're waiting too long and realize that you've not known about a problem early enough. I don't see that being fun.

Spies should not be getting you stats, diplomatic access should. And since that already provides other benefits (spy abilities), then it isnt such a huge opportunity cost on its own that people avoid it.

I don't see how that changes stuff. Either you get it passively, in which case you just replace instant access with semi-random access.

I want my statistics clean and simple. But I'm fine with "stuff that is happening currently" being handled that way.