Why so much anti-Germany bull here?

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Troyens
Maybe because some of us remember the Germans murdered almost 12 million people in concentration camps in WW II (half were Jews) and millions more mostly on the Soviet front.

Clearly a reason to hate the German people and state for all time, then.

 

[connor]

The Jews being racist to Palestinians or Arabs is just nonsense! Frankly, the Israelis and Jews have a right to some animosity towards the leadership of these people at the very least. It has been the avowed purpose of Arafat and his ilk to wipe Israel off the map. Since Israel's birth, they have been attacked incessantly for being who they are. There have been four major wars to date against Israel, plus continuous low intensity conflict since the beginning. Americans themselves have been the focus of Palestinian and Arab attacks because of America's support for Israel. When you see Palestinians cheering in streets after the WTC attacks, it makes it difficult to give any credibility to the PLO. This does not mean that all Palestinians or Arabs are bad and all Jews are good, it definitely goes both ways, but the totality of the circumstances has to be looked at.

 

[Ironikinit]

I'm not saying that I feel this way, but you can turn that argument around and say that arabs have the right to animosity just because Israel is on land that belong to them. I don't think that way at all but just saying.

 

[Salvor]

If Germany and the USA should be excluded because they are only parts of recent history, let me remind you that recent history is certainly part of history, and an important part at that. So if you want to exclude Germany and the USA, you should also push the game's end up from 2050 to sometime before 1776, and remove any advances made after that time. Yes, that includes rockets and space flight. Not to mention railroads, replaceable parts, all that other fun stuff.

Still think you've got a fun game? Think it'd sell very well? No, well now you know why Firaxis decided that recent history is important and included two major players from that period.


BTW, not to stir up trouble or anything, but there weren't four major wars against Israel. Israel started most of those wars, so it's hard to say that they were against Israel. Whether they were justified or not is another matter, and I have absolutely no intention of passing judgment there. But there is no black and white in that conflict. Neither side is totally right or good, and neither side is totally wrong or evil, either.

 

[connor]

There were four major wars, 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. The only one Israel started, and that is technically speaking, was the 1967 or 6 Day War. Israel started it because a complete call up of reservists was necessary due to the massed armies of six Arab countries on its borders and Israel strangling economically. All but the 1948 war of Independence were in the background orchestrated by the Soviet Union to gain the backing of the Arab states and knock the US out of the Middle East.

The justification part is easy, survival. Even more so when much of Israel was settled under the British mandate by concentration camp survivors and European Jewish refugees after WWII. With the avowed destruction of Israel as the Arab goals in those wars, and the past very much with the Israeli leadership and citizens, and the blatant anti-Israeli/anti-Semetic rhetoric of the UN during that period, Israel was very justified. In 1973 the only reason Israeli forces did not get to Cairo, got to within 40 miles, was due to arms shipment manipulations by the US in order to prevent Soviet intervention.:soldier:

 

[Salvor]

Good job of threadjacking, connor.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I have absolutely no intention of passing judgment on either the Israelis or their arab neighbors. I do believe, however, that neither is totally innocent.

BTW, your argument now is that these were wars against the United States perpetrated by the Soviet Union. Before I thought you said they were wars against Israel. Make up your mind. Was it the USSR trying to kick the USA out of the middle east, or was it the bloodthirsty arabs out to destroy Israel? If Israel wasn't the aggressor, why did the US act to prevent them from conquering Cairo (not that Nasser was totally helpless -- he wasn't)? Oh, yeah, I forgot, it's all because the UN is so blatantly anti-semitic.

Also, it's more correct to say Israel was settled in spite of the British mandate, not under it. Those folks were mostly illegal immigrants under the British mandate, and were actively fighting against the very people who were the only thing standing between them and Rommel.

When you invade somebody else's country with airplanes and tanks, it's hard to convince anyone that they started it. Especially when you annex territory as a result and refuse to give it back. Seems to me the Russians were massing troops in eastern Europe prior to June 1941. But nobody denies that it was the Nazis who invaded Russia, not the other way around.

I'm not saying the Isrealis are evil or didn't have good cause to do any of the things they did. But they're no angels, either, and the choices they make in how they defend their country have, in many cases, done more harm than good in the long run.

 

[Lt.Col. Kilgore]

Excellent thread! Its about time that people call a spade a spade! I understand completely! Germany is a beautiful nation full of beautiful self-respecting people who have let Jews live among them for hundreds of years! Only two incidents of any anti-Jewish behaviour on a large scale have been observed. Once during the plague when the Flagellents (sp?) spurred on by the Vatican asked people to attack Jews since they believed they might have started the plague. Which is NOT understandable, but under those conditions no one really thought logically anyway, what with people falling dead by the droves in the streets! And of course the Nazi party's targeting of the Jews as well as many other less mentioned people including the "inferior" Slavs! Remember the Einsatzgruppen Commandos on the Eastern Front? Anyway I believe the reason they were included was a basic coverage of the Germanic population of Central Europe. Who in their right mind would deny their influence on the world? Anyway I'd just like to say hell yes! And this brings to mind a movie I'd like to make if I eventually get that far in the film industry about the German and Japanese experience in WWII. Just to show simple-assed Americans (and I'm American) that these people weren't evil! Most German troops on the western front were part of the German Republic Army who weren't Nazi's and were, for all intents and purposes, forced into the war by Hitler's scheming. Just read about the S.A.'s hold over the German army who were a HUGE threat and kept the army in check. Overall the German Army despised the Nazis for the same reasons most people do, and then some. And most Germans weren't aware of the Holocaust, and to say that your average German citizen took part in targeting Jews is quite an ignorant statement. This is yet again another example of a few stupid individuals creating a bad reputaion for an entire people since those who judge them do so in a generalized manor because its just a short-cut to thinking!

 

[DGuller]

Quite frankly, when your country is on a tiny piece of land, you don't have the luxury of playing nice. One act of pacifism gone too far and you're in the Mediterranean Sea. The Arabs, or at least Palestinians, are hell bent on destroying Israel, so much that they don't care about actually making their life better, just blame the misery on Israel. Sure, Israel is fostering the hate too, they have no choice, play nice with them and get stabbed in the back fatally. I do sense a lot of ingrained hate for Arabs when listening to Isrealis, but having bombs explode left and right tends to make you less philosophical and more extreme. As for 1973 war, Isreal was always dependent on America juggling its priorities in the Middle East. Take over too much land and America can't guzzle Middle Eastern gasoline.

 

[Dirk Aurel]

Originally posted by Lt.Col. Kilgore

...And of course the Nazi party's targeting of the Jews as well as many other less mentioned people including the "inferior" Slavs! Remember the Einsatzgruppen Commandos on the Eastern Front?

...Just read about the S.A.'s hold over the German army who were a HUGE threat and kept the army in check. Overall the German Army despised the Nazis for the same reasons most people do, and then some....

Good post Kilgore,on your first statement that was just what I´m not buying from Troyens.Ppl who refer to a single group of individuals without mentioning the others that perished,are hypocrites for me.Yes,the Jews were the largest group,but why is there practically no mention of the others,and I don´t mean just in this posting but in general?Doesn´t only count for Nazi prosecuted ones,but also for the ones who died in the Gulag,or anywhere else for that matter.
One really does sometimes get the impression that with all this whining about the Jews,the others really are inferior!
The only people so far to mention that there were others who were murdered are in fact the Dutch,they built a memorial site for all.

This can´t be the way to remember it.

And yes they was a HUGE power struggle,which even went as far as having Ernst Röhn,leader of the SA,killed.Hitler needed the support of the army more.

As for you DGuller,I really want to keep out of this debate,this is the thread on Germany,not Israel.But what you say sounds more than just showing a bit of understanding for Israel´s situation.I do agree on Arabs really focusing a bit too much on Isreal,they often do hate the Israelis, but this isn´t any different from the Israelis other way round.How can the Palestinians solve their problems though without having a state of their own?
"Not having the luxury of playing nice",hmm?This may have gone for 1948,but certainly not today.Israel is superior technologically, it could probably take on the entire Arab world if they wanted to and is counted as one of the world´s nuclear powers.
The PLO even took out the line on destroying Israel as a state.As for "backstabbing" Palestininans,it is a bit hard to believe Israel´s true commitment to the peace process either, while it´s settling new Arab lands,bulldozing Palestinian settlements, shooting stone throwers in self defense of a tank, this sounds pretty pathetic to me.
Not even mentioning the way Palestinians are being treated in every day life,by the last occupation force on this planet.Last point,if Israel really is innocent,why does it not allow international observers into the country?

Have said way too much on the matter
(you might be thinking that´s a mad smilie,well it´s a dude with a zipped mouth)

Stick to Salvor,liked the reference to Soviets massing in the south and agree with him,neither of them are angels.

 

[allhailIndia]

It is really a matter of perspective if you hate Germans of or not. After the Allieswon the war, it was uncool to support Germany, so most people got down to some relaxed, German hating. However, I feel that Germany as a nation was as aggressive as Britain, as scientifically developed as the USA and had the artistic temperament of France as well. However, what went wrong was leadership. After the fine leadership of Bismarck and Frederick, the Kaiser, Hindenberg and Hitler, systematically led to the Germans being labelled as "Brutes", "Huns", etc. More often than not people are misled by a leader or are gullible enough to fall for a conman's charms and later pay the price. This is what I believe happened to the Germans.

 

[Dirk Aurel]

Well ok allhailIndia,but do bare in mind that nations will turn to certain leaders because of economic and military problems (or other).
Examples for this are Hitler in Germany,Mao in China,Lenin in Russia,take South America,Africa and Asia as economic strugglers, as for militaristic ones the first who comes to mind would be Churchill, unsuited as a peacetime leader,but ideal in wartime.A lot of these leaders, if any,would have never got to power in these countrys if the nation as a whole had been prosperous and didn´t find something in their personality it needed at this particular point in time.
Also nations will unite behind their leaders if threatened by an outside force.Stalin still has a good reputation with many in Russia,allthough everyone knows what type of person he really was.A recent example for this is Milosevic in former Yugoslavia. The Serbs knew they didn´t stand a chance,they also knew they were isolating themselves from just about everyone,this even going as far as Serbia´s closest ally Russia not properly willing to intervene anymore,and I don´t mean by force ofcourse.

One thing I don´t understand is why you have added Hindenburg to this list of negative leaders.He was a general in WW1 for god´s sake,what did he do wrong by doing his duty?He later became President of the Weimar Republic and has done nothing wrong.
Listing the Kaiser and Hitler in one sentence is also debateable, well you justified it by where the naughty nicks come from,sadly this is true.Otherwise they really aren´t compareable,allthough some will disagree with me.

 

[Franz-Josef II]

"Frederick the Kaiser"?!?!?
do you mean Frederick II, whose name actually was Friedrich II?? Then you should know that he has never been Kaiser!!!!! stop talking so much bull**** if you don't even know what a Kaiser actually is!
for your information the word "Kaiser" is german and developed from the word "Caesar". I guess you have all heard of a guy called "Gaius Julius Caesar". after him, all the Roman Emperors called themselves caesar...
The first "Kaiser" in history was "Karl the Great". Kings always had to be crowned by the Pope, which guaranteed that there always existed only one Kaiser. Normally this Kaiser represented the "Holy Roman Reich of German Nation". Later when Napoleon crowned himself this changed. And after the declaration of the German Reich by Bismarck there existed two Kaisers: namely the Austrian one Franz-Josef, and the German one Wilhelm II.....

 

[Sarcastro]

Originally posted by Salvor
I said it before and I'll say it again, I have absolutely no intention of passing judgment on either the Israelis or their arab neighbors. I do believe, however, that neither is totally innocent.

I agree there. But...

BTW, your argument now is that these were wars against the United States perpetrated by the Soviet Union. Before I thought you said they were wars against Israel. Make up your mind. Was it the USSR trying to kick the USA out of the middle east, or was it the bloodthirsty arabs out to destroy Israel?

No one has to make up their mind. It was both. Yes, the Soviets were backing the Arabs to try to drive the US out of the Middle East, but the Arabs were eager and willing to do it. Just like during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, when the Americans backed their "allies" in the region, and in Vietnam, when the same happened. To deny that many of the actual conflicts during the Cold War were puppet actions on the parts of the USA and USSR is simply ignorant. His argument is perfectly consistent.

 

[Howard Brazee]

It appears that the game designers were also trying to get a geographically diverse game - and one that is playable on our Earth with nations in about the correct place.

They really don't want to have a game with two Iberian powers, for instance.

But the hard part is deciding how to fill Africa and the Americas. Sure we have Egypt and possibly the Incas (who are really relatively modern - the Iraquois are even more modern). You can't get ancient with American powers - so the U.S. is included.

With a contenent crowded with history of various powers, such as Europe, some will be left out - unless someone provides a patch to convert France to Belgium. Swiss guards could be interesting.

Or better yet, have a Grand Duchy of Fenwick - with scienctific advances. Make Micronesia (hard to do) and aboriginal Australia as modern powers. Siam would be fun.

Part of the fun is in deciding what special units and abilities a nation would have.

 

[Hideyori]

Germany and America definetly deserve to be in the game. As stated in other messages, Germany has had a great effect on world history, culturally and otherwise. America has certainly been developing its culture in the last few hundred years, and has made such an impact on the world that it would be like forgetting Greece's few hundred bright years.
In response to the anti-Germany and the spontaneous Arab Israeli thing, I'm quite disgusted at the prejudice. I'm an American, but I live in Germany, (and I think both country's have their ups and downs, but I do prefer living in Germany) and I notice that Germans I know sometimes talk about how stupid, fat, and lazy Americans are, just as Americans sometimes talk about Germany equalling a evil nazi empire.
I might as well say something about the Israel thing. I don't think the nation of Israel should have been formed the way it was, with the borders just being *plop* drawn the way they were. I don't think that losing your land warrants blood terrorism though, and I think the terrorists of the Palestinians are doing more harm to themselves than good. I also think its pathetic that the Arabs continue to use terrorism to try and get their ways, especially when other Arabs are suffering so much for their activities.
-Germany Stays
-America Stays
-Aztecs should leave (at least be replaced with the Maya)

 

[Evil Robot]

Originally posted by Franz-Josef II
"Frederick the Kaiser"?!?!?
do you mean Frederick II, whose name actually was Friedrich II?? Then you should know that he has never been Kaiser!!!!! stop talking so much bull**** if you don't even know what a Kaiser actually is!
for your information the word "Kaiser" is german and developed from the word "Caesar". I guess you have all heard of a guy called "Gaius Julius Caesar". after him, all the Roman Emperors called themselves caesar...
The first "Kaiser" in history was "Karl the Great". Kings always had to be crowned by the Pope, which guaranteed that there always existed only one Kaiser. Normally this Kaiser represented the "Holy Roman Reich of German Nation". Later when Napoleon crowned himself this changed. And after the declaration of the German Reich by Bismarck there existed two Kaisers: namely the Austrian one Franz-Josef, and the German one Wilhelm II.....

Wilhelm II did not take power until 20 years after the unification of Germany. Get your facts straight.

William I and Frederick III controlled the throne until 1888.