Why the hell isn't Shaka Zulu in this

The Zulu are a pretty poor civilization from any point of view other than being a fan favorite. Give us South Africa instead, since they're an actual civilization. Hell, you could probably give them an Impi UU or Zulu-appropriate UA, to represent the pre-colonial region, and then still have a deserving leader in Nelson Mandela, as well as actual cities.

EDIT: Also, Arabia isn't a homogenized region in Civ V. Harun Al-Rashid's Arabia is pretty transparently just the Abbasid Caliphate.
 
Well if we want to go that route...Cuba should be added with Che Guevera as their leader. They would get a UA for spying, increasing success rate by 50%. Science and growth is increased by 25% while empire is under 3 cities

Why as their leader? In Cuba Guevara was just Castro's hired thug, his most notable "achievement" the establishment of a particularly effective gulag system used to incarcerate political prisoners and unpopular minorities. He joined the revolutionary movement after it was formed, and was among the candidates to be chosen as a leader following its success, but was neither its formative member nor its sole important player.

Certainly Civ shouldn't stray away from unpleasant leaders, but Guevara wasn't a leader in any sense, in Cuba or elsewhere, and most Civ choices have a better claim to fame than "someone who was good at having people tortured".

This is where Che Guevera comes in. He wanted to be a doctor and travelled all of south america and latin america. He noticed that everywhere he went, people were poor, miserable, and working for white corporates. He noticed that being a doctor would only be treating the symptoms of suffering. The only way to cure the disease would be to liberate the countries from foreign rule. So he began his crusade in Cuba and freed them from capitalist rule. Ever since then, Cuba has had the highest eduction rate in all of the Americas (Over us too) and free healthcare among other perks and survived the many attempts we made to (passively) destroy them.

Sounds like you've obtained your info from one of the films glorifying Guevara. Yes, he wrote a book as a student radical. Pol Pot started life as a Buddhist monk. And in positions of governance both with known for little more than largely meaningless brutality that achieved nothing - Pol Pot with Khmer Rouge purges fuelled by paranoia, Ernesto Guevara both with the pogroms he instituted when taken on by Castro and as leader of his revolutionary movements, with his tendency to randomly shoot people he deemed not loyal enough to his cause, sometimes en masse.

For all his rhetoric, Guevara achieved essentially nothing in any country he visited other than starting unsuccessful rebellions that got a lot of poor, oppressed people killed. Not infrequently by Che Guevara himself.

More appropriate leaders for Cuba would be Carlos Manuel de Cespedes (who successfully obtained Cuban independence from Spain), Jose Marti (not actually a Cuban leader, but the leading voice campaigning for independence and today considered Cuba's national hero), Fulgencia Batista (who instituted progressive reforms as Cuba's first democratically-elected president) or, of course, Fidel Castro.

As for independence from the US, this was granted by Theodore Roosevelt, who would make a decidedly odd choice of Cuban leader...

Now why the UA? Cuba completely owned America during every attempt they made to destroy them.

Which is relevant to the proposed overdone UA how? Cuba's not known for its intelligence operations (though a bonus to counterintelligence might work, spy actions already have such a high rate of success against most targets that it would barely be useful), and indeed has long been known for its poor economy and use of antiquated technology precisely because of the trade embargo against it. The growth bonus might work.

1. America declared a trade embargo against cuba after they earned their independence solely off the fact they did not have free reign over cuban resources anymore.

Just think, it only took them 60 years (Cuban independence: 1902. US sanctions against Cuba: 1962, in response to the formal abolition of democracy). Almost long enough to think the two events might not be related...

I suppose recent sanctions against Mali following the coup there are a response to the Malinese restricting export of their goods to the West?

They thought it would cause the people to starve and eventually overthrow Fidel but other Communist countries around the world helped Cuba survive and it royally pissed off america to know that they couldn't bleed them out peacefully.

Additional diplo bonus for civs that adopt the same social policy branch?

America has forsaken all claims to Cuba since. They understand they can't take Cuba without making themselves look like royal asses to the rest of the world.

Cuba should be in it. Che should be their leader even though it is Fidel. Che was the reason the rebellion ever began.

I think you should read up on both Cuban history and that of Ernesto Guevara. Not that this is in any way related to whether or not Cuba should be in Civ, but as a minor island nation whose main claim to fame is as a pawn in the power struggles between major nations (first America and Spain, later America and the Soviet Union), it's probably best represented by Havana as a city state (with cigars as the unique luxury, naturally...)
 
Why as their leader? In Cuba Guevara was just Castro's hired thug, his most notable "achievement" the establishment of a particularly effective gulag system used to incarcerate political prisoners and unpopular minorities. He joined the revolutionary movement after it was formed, and was among the candidates to be chosen as a leader following its success, but was neither its formative member nor its sole important player.

Certainly Civ shouldn't stray away from unpleasant leaders, but Guevara wasn't a leader in any sense, in Cuba or elsewhere, and most Civ choices have a better claim to fame than "someone who was good at having people tortured".



Sounds like you've obtained your info from one of the films glorifying Guevara. Yes, he wrote a book as a student radical. Pol Pot started life as a Buddhist monk. And in positions of governance both with known for little more than largely meaningless brutality that achieved nothing - Pol Pot with Khmer Rouge purges fuelled by paranoia, Ernesto Guevara both with the pogroms he instituted when taken on by Castro and as leader of his revolutionary movements, with his tendency to randomly shoot people he deemed not loyal enough to his cause, sometimes en masse.

For all his rhetoric, Guevara achieved essentially nothing in any country he visited other than starting unsuccessful rebellions that got a lot of poor, oppressed people killed. Not infrequently by Che Guevara himself.

More appropriate leaders for Cuba would be Carlos Manuel de Cespedes (who successfully obtained Cuban independence from Spain), Jose Marti (not actually a Cuban leader, but the leading voice campaigning for independence and today considered Cuba's national hero), Fulgencia Batista (who instituted progressive reforms as Cuba's first democratically-elected president) or, of course, Fidel Castro.

As for independence from the US, this was granted by Theodore Roosevelt, who would make a decidedly odd choice of Cuban leader...



Which is relevant to the proposed overdone UA how? Cuba's not known for its intelligence operations (though a bonus to counterintelligence might work, spy actions already have such a high rate of success against most targets that it would barely be useful), and indeed has long been known for its poor economy and use of antiquated technology precisely because of the trade embargo against it. The growth bonus might work.



Just think, it only took them 60 years (Cuban independence: 1902. US sanctions against Cuba: 1962, in response to the formal abolition of democracy). Almost long enough to think the two events might not be related...

I suppose recent sanctions against Mali following the coup there are a response to the Malinese restricting export of their goods to the West?



Additional diplo bonus for civs that adopt the same social policy branch?

America has forsaken all claims to Cuba since. They understand they can't take Cuba without making themselves look like royal asses to the rest of the world.



I think you should read up on both Cuban history and that of Ernesto Guevara. Not that this is in any way related to whether or not Cuba should be in Civ, but as a minor island nation whose main claim to fame is as a pawn in the power struggles between major nations (first America and Spain, later America and the Soviet Union), it's probably best represented by Havana as a city state (with cigars as the unique luxury, naturally...)

u got your information from capitalist text books. You need to get your heads out of the top 1%'s book and start learning real world politics. There is a reason why Che is the most celebrated revolutionary in latin countries and it isnt because of those lame reasons u mentioned.
 
Ok, what is with the conception that a civilization has to be a warmongering military power to be included in Civilization?!? There is more than one way to win Civilization and there are more ways than military strength that a real-world civilization can be important enough to include in the game. A civilization's impact on art and science and it's cultural legacy is just as important as a history of military strength.
 
What makes me a little sad is that there will never be any other Italy-based civilization other than Rome. There are quite a few cultures that are deserving - specifically the Lombards/Langobards for the Medieval and Venice for the Renaissance come to mind.

It doesn't really need that . Italy is more represented in Civ5 than most civilizations will ever be,even if there isn't a Italian civilization .


Canada is barely 150 years old, Australia just a bit over 100 years, and they both never had as much impact on history as Byzantium did - their contributions to global history pale in comparison, and are pretty much neglectable.

Many big historical empires overlapped geographically, and just because Constantinople is a city that was later conquered by the Turks doesn't make the Byzantines any less worth of a spot in the game, especially not when it comes to Canada or Australia, which barely qualify having their own "culture" but rather are part of the modern mishmash of 20th century culture. Really now.

Possibly a better choice for a second "modern civilization" than Canada and Australia is Brazil . It's one of the main rising powers of this era that has never been represented as a civilization in the whole Civ series and it has a very unique culture,compared to the Metropolian state that originate it .
 
Ok, what is with the conception that a civilization has to be a warmongering military power to be included in Civilization?!? There is more than one way to win Civilization and there are more ways than military strength that a real-world civilization can be important enough to include in the game. A civilization's impact on art and science and it's cultural legacy is just as important as a history of military strength.

I don't know where you get the vibe that military strength is the only deciding factor of choosing a civilization, at least from the people in here. Nobody claimed that, I think.

But, consider this: Many great empires came with conquest. In history, you will never find an actual empire that didn't have some sort of blood on their hands. Even if the peoples are considered generally peaceful. Example, the Swiss - Switzerland has been neutral and was left untouched in many conflicts since centuries, but to get to that status, there were many bloody defense wars for the Swiss. And they too conquered a few of the cantons.

But, of course, some nations have left legacies that are based upon peace, prosperity, wealth, science or culture. There is no doubt in that.

It doesn't really need that . Italy is more represented in Civ5 than most civilizations will ever be,even if there isn't a Italian civilization .

How so? There is Rome, a couple of wonders, and a few city states. I still would like to see the Lombard kingdom or the Republic of Venice some time. But that's just like, my opinion, man.

Possibly a better choice for a second "modern civilization" than Canada and Australia is Brazil . It's one of the main rising powers of this era that has never been represented as a civilization in the whole Civ series and it has a very unique culture,compared to the Metropolian state that originate it .

Brazil is actually a pretty cool idea, I like it! There's too little American-based civs anyway, only the standard 5 that are in pretty much every civ game (USA, Aztecs, Maya, Inca and some sort of Native Americans). A Latin-American regional power would make sense - Brazil or maybe Mexico would be pretty interesting.
 
Cuban UA would need to be called Soviet Largesse (a fixed gold bonus per 10 turns).

Their UU would, of course, be African Marxist.
 
Hmm, looking at the prior Civilization games, there's actually only a handful missing from those that have been in the prequels (not counting Civ 4 Colonization).
Zulu, Mali, Sioux, Native Americans, Khmer, Portugal, Holy Roman Empire, Hittites and Sumerians.

I would argue that out of these 9 civs, only Khmer, Portugal and Zulu seem pretty likely to be added. Zulu have been a mainstay of the series (been in every game except this one, although they were in an expansion in Civ 4), while Khmer and Portugal would make sense, although the Khmer only were in Civ 4, and the Portuguese in Civ 3 and 4.

Mali and Native Americans/Sioux already are kindasorta represented in Songhai (which pretty much is the successor to the kingdom of Mali) and Iroquois - not sure if it would make sense to have 2 native American tribes. So I wouldn't count on any of these 3 to return.

HRE seems pretty unlikely to me, because it actually is more of an institution rather than an actual empire, and the Landsknecht is already given to Germany this time around - however, the Franks are in the Fall of Rome scenario (and got their own Carolingian cross as an emblem), so there might be a chance.

Not sure about the chances of Hittites and Sumerians - the Hittites were only in the last Civ 3 expansion, and together with Sumer they have been in the Wonders of the Ancient World scenario for Civ 5 - however, only by name (the leaders were already existing ones; I think Sumeria was who got the Arabs, and the Hittites I think got the Ottomans). Sumeria might have a few better chances because it (like Portugal) was in Civ 3 and 4.
But on the other hand, Sumeria also is one of the many Mesopotamian cultures, along with the Babylonians and the Assyrians, who all could be considered worthy additions, but the Babylonians simply have the seniority bonus for the series in general.
 
u got your information from capitalist text books. You need to get your heads out of the top 1%'s book and start learning real world politics. There is a reason why Che is the most celebrated revolutionary in latin countries and it isnt because of those lame reasons u mentioned.

Maybe you should realize in fact he is not. Just because thats what you hear in the US, doesn't mean thats true. Many Guatemalans blame him in part for being a reason the US targeted Arbenz and how his actions only heralded the degeneration of democracy in Guatemala and Latin America. Without the needless suspicion he helped raise with the UFC Dulles may have never gotten invovled in Guatemala and we may have never needed to deal with a Bay of Pigs type scenario.
 
Havana city state? Yes.
Cuban civ? no

Of course, to have cigars as its merc. resource, there'd have to be at least 2/3 other city states providing the same bonus to choose from.

Santiago, maybe? But other than that I can't think of any.

I would have thought Havana would be a maritime or cultural CS anyway.
 
well lets have a look...
From mideast there have been many civs....
From americas..also many civs....
FRom china-japanese region, too, 3-4 civs.....
FRom africa also many many civs.....
from indo-china also some Civs.....
from europe are the most civs ever.....

But from Indian subcontinent, only 1 civ ever, in every civ game....
I think the mughals, or the marathas, or the Mauryas, and many others deserve better chance than Zulus and others....

Mughals....Leader: Akbar The Great, Capital: Agra

UA: Mansabdari System, Army upkeep Lesser and Pre-Industrial Units take Less Time to Train.....
UU1: Sowars , Replaces Knight, Melee Camels, OR Mahout, Replaces Knight, Gets Bonus vs cities (negative multiplier removed)
UU2: Sepoys, Replaces Musketman,

MAratha ....Leader: Shivaji, Capital: Raigad

UA: ---
UU1: the pal, replaces Frigate
UU2: Maratha Infantry, Replaces Long-swordsman, Better combat strength than long swordsmen,

Also Indian Civ Should Be More Modern...and have a modern Era UU. Eg. Rajputana Rifles, replaces Infantry...
 
Of course, to have cigars as its merc. resource, there'd have to be at least 2/3 other city states providing the same bonus to choose from.

Maybe make it tobacco and you could have more than just Havana and Santiago?
Actually, having more of those little Mercantile CS-exclusive luxuries would be pretty cool.
 
u got your information from capitalist text books. You need to get your heads out of the top 1%'s book and start learning real world politics. There is a reason why Che is the most celebrated revolutionary in latin countries

And Robert Mugabe is one of the most celebrated revolutionary leaders among African countries. Not because the other nations are blind to his behaviour or consider him a good leader, but merely because he gave the colonial power a bloody nose forty years ago. It doesn't make him pleasant or his achievements worthy of being celebrated in Civilization.

The issue here (aside from the historical revisionism that inaccurately portrays him as anti-corporate crusader in line with the modern post-Cold War world) isn't that Ernesto Guevara was a brutal tyrant - it's that he was a brutal tyrant who didn't actually achieve anything to benefit or even substantially alter any of the societies where he either fomented revolution or had a government position, or that would otherwise justify his consideration among "great leaders". He had a moderate role in social reform in Guatemala (before the CIA deposed the socialist government, and also drove his own opposition to American interventionism), trained guerillas in Cuba (the only successful guerilla movement he ever orchestrated - ironically for someone whose well-known achievements include authoring a book on guerilla warfare, he was hardly Ho Chi Minh in that department), and sponsored unsuccessful revolutions elsewhere, apparently with an eye more to publicising Che Guevara and satisfying his own death wish than with any expectation of success. His one moderately lasting contribution - to Cuban socialism - was one in which he wasn't the sole major figure, and even that lasted less than forty years before Castro clandestinely introduced local-scale market reforms, a process that's still ongoing.

Even if you accept the importance of his role in helping Cuba to resist the designs of its former colonial power, suggesting him as Cuban leader would be akin to choosing the Maquis de Lafayette as the American leader - they're both foreign military leaders without whom the respective 'adopted' countries' revolutionary wars would likely have failed, but who had little further role in the subsequent development of those societies.
 
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HRE seems pretty unlikely to me, because it actually is more of an institution rather than an actual empire,

To all intents and purposes the Holy Roman Empire was the German state - the country's full name was The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (admittedly only post-1512 officially). It variously included territory from other parts of Europe, but then so did most of the European countries represented - during the Angevin Empire England controlled much of France. Spain of course included the Netherlands. Rome included both Gaul and the British Isles (although not the latter in the period represented), as well as much of Germany.

It was certainly a nation rather than an "institution", whether or not you call it an empire (a term which of course has a very different meaning in the post-colonial era than it had historically; the "Empire" of the name was in any case inherited from its imagined predecessor state the Roman Empire), and it was only in its later period that it developed into more of a constitutional union than a monolithic state - to all intents and purposes it's just a historical name for a unified Germany, so having it and Germany in the same game makes as much sense as having a civilization called Siam and one called Thailand in the same game (there were several Thai civs, however the name Siam and the Thai equivalent of "Thailand" were names that emerged at much the same time to describe the same nation).

Civ V appears to use "Germany" generically to describe the nation's historical as well as modern incarnation in the same way that the colonial-era name Siam is used anachronistically to describe the older Sukothai Kingdom.
 
Like I said, the byzantine empire WAS great, and it DOES deserve a spot in the game. Yes, canada and australia have little historical importance compared to Byzantium. I am only saying that byzantiums inclusion over these civs is unfavorable to TSL Earth maps. Again, the Byzantine empire should be included in this game.

And brazil is also a good idea. It's one of the most 'unique' former colonies, and its cultural impact probably outshines that of portugal.
 
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