Why Theodora?

Historical significance and competence do not even come close to making it on the list of potential reasons to include someone as a leader for a commercial release of a game in the civ series. Leaders are included for being well known or interesting.

I understand that historical accuracy is hardly the prime concern of Civilization. I just don't understand why everyone on the forums is okay with the idea of an advisor who gave some pretty bad advice on occasion being chosen over all the other competent leaders of the Byzantine Empire. The choice of Theodora doesn't give you a better game, or a more fun one. It just gives you a historically innaccurate one. Why is that okay?
 
Theodora may not have been *completely* bad for Byzantium, given, as has been noted, her involvement in Justinian's putting on the big boy pants in the Nika revolts and her institution of certain feminist policies, but history implies that her influence was far more uniformly negative apart from these factors.

Look, I'm not looking for a historical simulation. But in this game, where leader figures are restricted to one per civ, and so much work is being put into their animation, dialogue, etc, I just find it a colossal shame that the individual they chose to represent the public face of the millenium-old Byzantine empire, inheritor of Rome, is so woefully unqualified. Every other civilization has a leader whose influence has been positive, at least on balance. It just seems massively unfair that Byzantium is saddled with a woman whose scheming quite plainly left it worse off.

And to those of you who referenced Theodora's wikipedia article, please note that that is a *heavily* sanitized account of her actions during Justinian's reign. None of it is patently untrue (i.e. the Eunuch Narses did indeed come to be a distinguished general) but it sort of glosses over all of Theodora's many iniquities, and fails in my opinion to present an unbiased account of her relevance to the historical stage. Truly, I am fairly certain that most modern feminists wouldn't be to eager to associate themselves with so morally bankrupt an individual if they knew the full story.

My point really is that Byzantium deserves far better than it's getting. This decision also represents, moreso even than most previous decisions of the variety, to ignore decades upon decades of historically competent leaders, generals and administrators in the search of the one solitary woman attractive enough to occupy the figurehead throne. It reeks of ridiculous political correctness and given as I see her face every time i open diplomacy to a Byzantine player, I'll always be reminded of exactly how superficial this game is. I really don't like being reminded of that.
 
I posted the paragraph, but it was not from wikipedia. The website is lost to me, but it covered the military exploits and reign of Justinian as well. That was part of the first chapter. The Nika revolt did occur early in his reign. When I find it I will post a link.

Here it is. http://www.third-millennium-library.com/MedievalHistory/Cambridge/II/1-Justinian.html

"Theodora's name may still be read with that of the Emperor on the walls of churches and over the doors of castles of that date. Her picture makes a fellow to that of her imperial husband in the church of San Vitale in Ravenna, and also in the mosaics which decorated the rooms of the Sacred Palace, for it was Justinian’s wish to associate her with the military triumphs and the splendors of the reign. The grateful people raised statues to her as to Justinian, the officials also swore fidelity to her, for she was the Emperor's equal throughout her life, while ambassadors and foreign kings hastened to her to pay their respects and to gain her goodwill as well as that of the basileus. In deliberating on the most important occasions Justinian always took council of “the most honored wife which God had given him”, whom he loved to call “his sweetest charm”, and contemporaries agree in declaring that she did not scruple to use the boundless influence which she possessed, and that her authority was equal to, if not greater than, that of her husband. Certainly this ambitious lady possessed many eminent qualities to justify the supreme authority which she wielded. She was a woman of unshaken courage, as she proved in the troublous time of the Nika rising, proud energy, masculine resolution, a determined and a clear mind, and a strong will by which she frequently overruled the vacillating Justinian. She undoubtedly combined defects and even vices with these qualities. She was domineering and harsh, she loved money and power. To keep the throne to which she had risen she would stoop to deceit, violence, and cruelty; she was implacable in her dislikes, and inflexible towards those whom she hated. By means of a disgraceful intrigue she pitilessly destroyed the fortunes of John of Cappadocia, the all-powerful praetorian praefect, who dared for one moment to dispute her supremacy (541). She made Belisarius bitterly expiate his rare lapses into independence, and by the ascendancy which she gained over Antonina, the patrician's wife, she made him her humble and obedient servant. As passionate in her loves as in her hates, she advanced her favorites without scruple. Peter Barsymes was made praetorian praefect, Narses a general, Vigilius a pope, while she turned the imperial palace into a hotbed of incessant intrigues. Her influence was not always good—though the loungers of Constantinople have strangely lengthened the list of her cruelties and increased the number of her victims—but it was always powerful. Even when she was forced temporarily to give way before circumstances, her audacious and supple wit was always able to devise some startling retaliation. Wily and ambitious, she always aspired to have the last word—and she got it."

She sounds like a character similar to Lucretia from the Spartacus series. Though Lucretia has no more power than her deciet. Theodora sounds like an ambitious, conniving, and cruel woman. Whats not to like? What leaders did not do similar things? Would you count say, Richard the Lionheart as part of the good guys club? Hmmm? How about any leader they are all dirty in one way or another. When Gods and Kings comes out, if you hate her so much, put the Byzantines in as an AI civ and destroy her.
 
I was actually referring to those who referred to it as their primary source of information on the Empress. Sorry for the miscommunication.
 
If you're honestly surprised by Theodora's inclusion, go back and look at China.

Did they pick the first emperor? Did they pick Mao? Did they pick Taizong? No! They pick Taizong's wife, who is lesser known and was, honestly, a pretty crappy ruler no matter how you look at things.
 
You know, if they picked Constantine the Great as Byzantium's figurehead, they could have featured him in the Fall of Rome scenario. Oh well. Wonder how they'll cross that obstacle.
 
I understand that historical accuracy is hardly the prime concern of Civilization. I just don't understand why everyone on the forums is okay with the idea of an advisor who gave some pretty bad advice on occasion being chosen over all the other competent leaders of the Byzantine Empire. The choice of Theodora doesn't give you a better game, or a more fun one. It just gives you a historically innaccurate one. Why is that okay?

Don't get me wrong, here. I cringe every time I see an unrealistic or logically inconsistent element in civ. I don't care for it at all. But if it weren't for that, it wouldn't be civ.

My argument is this: the target audience for civ has never been historically literate people. It is meant to be a historically themed game that uses a popular and oftentimes silly interpretation of history, and it works. Historical accuracy and sensibility are just not part of the marketability of the game.

If you think about it, people with historical knowledge exceeding a high school humanities class level (a very, very low standard to exceed) are a teeny tiny niche market in America. The average American doesn't know the difference between China and Japan, and certainly can't name off any leaders from either. Average PC/Strategy gamers might be a little better, but not by much. Where does the average civ player get their historical information? Two sources: Pop culture and previous civ games.

Is a gamer who is genuinely knowledgeable and interested in history going to overlook buying civ because it is inaccurate? No, they will say "Ngggghh I wish this leader spoke in a more appropriate dialect, whatever take my money".

Is a gamer who is not knowledgeable more likely to buy the game if it features Theodora as a character than a more capable leader? Possibly. A preview is less likely to describe more traditional leaders in an interesting and evocative way, but it has more opportunities to put spin and get readers when describing someone with drama behind them like Theodora. Female gaming blogs might pick up on the "feminist icon" spin. So, when your average, history-illiterate gamer sees an article, they are not upset or outraged; they are intrigued. And they're the ones that form a market which may or may not buy the game, and are in vastly larger numbers than "fanatics". Not to say that diehards get ignored, far from it; we get modding support and flexibility that is still rare these days in other games. I would point out that often, the most popular mods attempt to make the game more historically accurate, which leads to another point: If your fanbase is going to make your game historically accurate for you, why make decisions that can cost potential sales just to appease a small minority of them?
 
You know, if they picked Constantine the Great as Byzantium's figurehead, they could have featured him in the Fall of Rome scenario. Oh well. Wonder how they'll cross that obstacle.

Constantine may be added for that scenario. On all accounts, I believe he should be. If he is I'll play as him first. :D Otherwise give me a barbarian. Perhaps the Visigoths. :)
 
To be honest, I'm surprised they didn't go with Empress Irene, what with Byzantium's focus on religion. Even gives a good name to the UA, The Triumph of Orthodoxy.

triumphicon_l.jpg


Yes, yes, probably no one knows about Irene, while at least a few know about Theodora. Think of it as a learning experience.
 
She sounds like a character similar to Lucretia from the Spartacus series. Though Lucretia has no more power than her deciet. Theodora sounds like an ambitious, conniving, and cruel woman. Whats not to like? What leaders did not do similar things? Would you count say, Richard the Lionheart as part of the good guys club? Hmmm? How about any leader they are all dirty in one way or another. When Gods and Kings comes out, if you hate her so much, put the Byzantines in as an AI civ and destroy her.

An ambitious, conniving and cruel woman might make a good character in a show but she'd be a horrible ruler in real life. the quote you provided is basically a checklist of negative qualities a ruler can have.

avaricious, check.
petty, check.
prone to favouritism, check.
mean spirited, check.
debauched, check.

I mean, you can overlook the ambitious part, but she really wasn't a good leader. She just wasn't. And all I'm saying is that it's not bloody fair that the Byzantine empire, much maligned by pop historians as it already is, gets this murderous harpy as its avatar when India gets the revered Gandhi, France gets the Emperor Napoleon and Rome gets the greatest Princeps of all time, Augustus Caesar! I'm not saying i want a paragon of Christian virtue as my avatar, though those are certainly at least somewhat present amongst Byzantium's emperors, but I want at least someone I can bloody respect!

I am, once again, not questioning Theodora's worth as a character. Were they to produce a series about Byzantium I would gladly watch her connive and scheme and kill. But this is a game of empires, where the figurehead is supposed to at least tangentially represent what is best of the civilization in question. I do not want people playing this game for the first time to have the impression that all Byzantium has to offer in terms of historical persons is this vile seductress. All it would really do is accentuate the already stained reputation Byzantium (as denoted by the word 'byzantine') has accrued through Edward Gibbons' ruthless tearing down of its values and the neglect it has suffered at the hands of subsequent historians.

Byzantium deserves better. Theodora is a terrible choice.
 
You know, if they picked Constantine the Great as Byzantium's figurehead, they could have featured him in the Fall of Rome scenario. Oh well. Wonder how they'll cross that obstacle.

Constatnine is not really a Byzantine leader, rather a roman leader. Some would say even Justinian and his lovely wife were not 'Byzantine' leaders but rather the last of the Roman Emperors
 
Two sources: Pop culture and previous civ games.

Awesome lol ^

rather the last of the Roman Emperors

Interesting line of thought but again we come back to the "average american" deal. I would still rather see Justinian but I will live with it and call it a flavor choice. Perhaps something in the UA will reflect her personality with espionage? (1 extra belief while powerful does not seem to be a full UA imo)
 
An ambitious, conniving and cruel woman might make a good character in a show but she'd be a horrible ruler in real life. the quote you provided is basically a checklist of negative qualities a ruler can have.

avaricious, check.
petty, check.
prone to favouritism, check.
mean spirited, check.
debauched, check.

I mean, you can overlook the ambitious part, but she really wasn't a good leader. She just wasn't. And all I'm saying is that it's not bloody fair that the Byzantine empire, much maligned by pop historians as it already is, gets this murderous harpy as its avatar when India gets the revered Gandhi, France gets the Emperor Napoleon and Rome gets the greatest Princeps of all time, Augustus Caesar! I'm not saying i want a paragon of Christian virtue as my avatar, though those are certainly at least somewhat present amongst Byzantium's emperors, but I want at least someone I can bloody respect!

I am, once again, not questioning Theodora's worth as a character. Were they to produce a series about Byzantium I would gladly watch her connive and scheme and kill. But this is a game of empires, where the figurehead is supposed to at least tangentially represent what is best of the civilization in question. I do not want people playing this game for the first time to have the impression that all Byzantium has to offer in terms of historical persons is this vile seductress. All it would really do is accentuate the already stained reputation Byzantium (as denoted by the word 'byzantine') has accrued through Edward Gibbons' ruthless tearing down of its values and the neglect it has suffered at the hands of subsequent historians.

Byzantium deserves better. Theodora is a terrible choice.

I do see your point here. Still I am not all that bothered by their choice. If it was up to me I would have chosen Alexius I Comnenus, especially due to the Medieval scenario, which may have a Crusades style feel to it.

I just want to play Gods & Kings badly. And they should make a series about the Byzantine Empire. What a great idea for when Spartacus is overwith.
 
Maybe I missed something, but how do we know that that's the Theodora they're talking about? Wikipedia lists several empresses by that name:

Theodora (wife of Justinian I), 6th century Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress, wife of Justinian I, considered a saint by the Greek Orthodox Church
Theodora of Khazaria, 7th century Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress, wife of Justinian II
Theodora (wife of Theophilos), Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress in the 9th century
Theodora, wife of Romanos I, 10th century Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress, wife of Romanos I
Theodora, daughter of Constantine VII, 10th century Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress, wife of John I Tzimiskes
Theodora Doukaina Vatatzina, 13th century Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress, wife of Michael VIII Palaiologos.
Theodora (11th century), Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empress who ruled 1055-1056

Of all those, the 11th century empress was the only regnant, and her article makes her seem somewhat competent. ("controlled the unruly nobles and checked numerous excesses" is not something one would expect to see in the average bio of a Byzantine monarch)

There's also "Theodora (wife of Theophilos)". She was a regent, not a regnant, but "For her restoration of the veneration of icons, which ended the Byzantine Iconoclasm, she is venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church; her Feast Day is February 11. She is the patron Saint of Churches." That would fit in with a religious specialty.

But even if we're stuck with the first one it's still better than when China got Wu Zetian.
 
I think the stupidity of that decision (Wu Zetian) rivals this one, but doesn't necessarily overcome it. Theodora is just a really bad choice. =(
 
I reckon most decisions like this are purely marketing related. A lot of guys seem to like leaders like Catherine (and probably now Dido). I bet Theodora is going to be a bit like that.
 
Maybe I missed something, but how do we know that that's the Theodora they're talking about? Wikipedia lists several empresses by that name

The wife of Justinian, almost certainly. I guess their's a slim chance, but it would be like hearing that "Gandhi will be the leader of India" in a preview, and saying "Will it be Mahatma Gandhi or Indira Gandhi?".

And given how difficult it is to make leader screens, I doubt that their likely to chance their decision, or even switch it to Constantine for the scenario, unless they just give him a picture instead of an animated screen. But we can all hope:)
 
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