Why this war?

[Simna]

Washington and I (Ragnar) have a defensive pact together.
Mansa Musa is a vassal to Washington.
Washington and Mansa Musa are friendly towards me.
Montesuma is my vassal and he is cautios towards me.
Montesuma is furious towards Washington and Mansa Musa and Washington feels the same for Montesuma, but Mansa Musa is just cautious towards Montesuma.

I press the button for another turn, and what a surprise I got.
I’m told that I declare war against Montesuma.
Mansa Musa declares war aganist me and I see in the list at the right that Washington declares war at me.

And then....the game turns down my monitor to “Entering powering.....”, whitch happens now and then since I installed the The Warlords expansion.
(And another thing; In the turn just before I was told that my capital had to give up building The Eiffel Tower, but I had just finnished building The Eiffel Tower in another city.

About vassals: Montezuma was my vassal, but I was tired of his insolence and I tried to get rid of him being my vassal. But I couldn’t. Why?

Anyone?

 

[TomOC]

I press the button for another turn, and what a surprise I got.
I’m told that I declare war against Montesuma.
Mansa Musa declares war aganist me and I see in the list at the right that Washington declares war at me.

Montsuma was your vassel. Washington and Mansa Musa (because they are vassels) declared war on Monsuma, which will by default, declares war on you.

(And another thing; In the turn just before I was told that my capital had to give up building The Eiffel Tower, but I had just finnished building The Eiffel Tower in another city.

You must have suspended building the Eiffel Tower in your capital (to build something else), and started building it in another city. Once the other city completes the tower you will get "give up building" messege.

 

[PMabey]

your spellings of montezuma are getting gradually worse. first it was montesuma, then montsuma finally monsuma....lol. btw TomOC is right about what happened.

 

[Masquerouge]

Montsuma was your vassel. Washington and Mansa Musa (because they are vassels) declared war on Monsuma, which will by default, declares war on you.

I have to admit I don't understand: if Monty is your vassal, as is the case in the OP, why would he declare war on you when Washington declares war on him?

 

[TomOC]

I have to admit I don't understand: if Monty is your vassal, as is the case in the OP, why would he declare war on you when Washington declares war on him?

OK. Long version...

1) Ragnar (the OP) has a defense pact with Washington.

2) Mansa is a Vassal to Washington, which also in effect puts Ragnar in a defensive pact with Mansa. If Mansa gets attacked , Washington MUST defend causing you to also defend because of your defense pact with Washington.

3) Monty declares war on Mansa which forces Washington to defend his vassal, which causes Ragnar to defend Washington, which causes Ragnar to declare war on Monty.

4)BUT because Monty was Ragnars vassal, Washington also must declare war on Ragnar, and because Mansa was the vassel of Washington, Mansa also declares war on Ragnar.

I think I got it right.

 

[thenooblet22]

OK. Long version...

1) Ragnar (the OP) has a defense pact with Washington.

2) Mansa is a Vassal to Washington, which also in effect puts Ragnar in a defensive pact with Mansa. If Mansa gets attacked , Washington MUST defend causing you to also defend because of your defense pact with Washington.

3) Monty declares war on Mansa which forces Washington to defend his vassal, which causes Ragnar to defend Washington, which causes Ragnar to declare war on Monty.

4)BUT because Monty was Ragnars vassal, Washington also must declare war on Ragnar, and because Mansa was the vassel of Washington, Mansa also declares war on Ragnar.

I think I got it right.

Naw, you forgot that Montezuma was his vassal, so he can't wage his own wars. Let's just leave this to the X Files or the next patch, which ever comes first.

 

[MoonBase]

Huh. I'm surprised Ragnar didn't wind up declaring war on himself!

 

[Masquerouge]

OK. Long version...

1) Ragnar (the OP) has a defense pact with Washington.

Check.

2) Mansa is a Vassal to Washington, which also in effect puts Ragnar in a defensive pact with Mansa. If Mansa gets attacked , Washington MUST defend causing you to also defend because of your defense pact with Washington.

But Monty is ragnar's vassal, thus by that very logic he should also be in the defensive pact?!?

3) Monty declares war on Mansa which forces Washington to defend his vassal, which causes Ragnar to defend Washington, which causes Ragnar to declare war on Monty.

But if Monty is a vassal, can he declare wars on his own?

4)BUT because Monty was Ragnars vassal, Washington also must declare war on Ragnar, and because Mansa was the vassel of Washington, Mansa also declares war on Ragnar.

So forgetting the preceding issues, this would mean than vassality trumps defensive pacts?

I think I got it right.

I think I'm gonna cry.

 

[TomOC]

Naw, you forgot that Montezuma was his vassal, so he can't wage his own wars. Let's just leave this to the X Files or the next patch, which ever comes first.

Vassal agreements can be broken by the vassal (not the master) after 10 turns. Only capitulation can't be broken.

OK How about this. (I can't leave it )

1) Ragnar (the OP) has a defense pact with Washington.

2) Mansa is a Vassal to Washington.

3) Monty breaks his vassal ageement with Ragnar and declares war on Washington.

4) Ragnar is dragged into the war because of his defense agreement with Washington. Thus Monty declares war on Ragnar.

5) Washington demands a resource from his vassal Mansa. Mansa refuses, thus, Mansa goes to war with Washington. Again, Ragnar is dragged into a war because of his defensive pact.

6) Washington declares war on Ragnar because REAL vikings don't wear horns!

OK I give up.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

OK, a few facts

1. as soon as a War is declared, the defense pact disappears
So as I see it (what may have happened)

1. Monty Breaks the Vassalage..declaring war on Ragnar (Human)

2. Washington declares on Monty (Defensive Pact Activated and disappears)

3. Monty desperate now that he is outgunned offers Vassalage to Washington in exchange for Peace, Washington accepts and Now Washington and M+M are at war with Ragnar (Human)

 

[Simna]

Hej!

I’ve read your thoughts in this strange matter, but I won’t get any wiser. I’ve checked the order of the messages when I press the button for another turn;
1. You (Ragnar) have declared war on Montezuma!
2. Mansa Musa has declared war on you!
3. Washington has declared war on Montezuma!
4. Montezuma has declared war om Mansa Musa!

Then I’m told that the enemy is near one of my cities. That’s Montezuma on his way into my empire.

But I don’t get any message that Washington declares war on me!!!

How can Mansa Musa declare war on me? He’s vassal to Washington.

After I’ve captured a city from Montezuma and I’ve got a peace treaty with him, he ask me to be my vassal again!!! Surely cause he got both Washington and Mansa Musa in his neck.

And is it only the vassal that can break the vassalage?

Lev väl.

 

[Buffbot]

Vassals...

Vassals are for those leaders impatient enough to obliterate a weakened foe. Much like how Hitler let England live in WW2. If he had just finished off England before turning to Russia, WW2 might have ended VERY differently.

Much the same in Civ4... I only accepted a vassal ONCE. He became a pain in the behind (conquered 2 cities I had beat down to one defending unit, then gets all uppity like he's cool like ice cream or something.) So after that lesson, I learned to extinct a civilization before focusing on another.

Several times I have taken a personal loss of 2 or 3 of MY cities to finish off a civ that is trying to capitulate. Capitulate? NO, you must die.

VASSALS --- JUST SAY NO!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Hej!

I’ve read your thoughts in this strange matter, but I won’t get any wiser. I’ve checked the order of the messages when I press the button for another turn;
1. You (Ragnar) have declared war on Montezuma!
2. Mansa Musa has declared war on you!
3. Washington has declared war on Montezuma!
4. Montezuma has declared war om Mansa Musa!

Then I’m told that the enemy is near one of my cities. That’s Montezuma on his way into my empire.

But I don’t get any message that Washington declares war on me!!!

How can Mansa Musa declare war on me? He’s vassal to Washington.

After I’ve captured a city from Montezuma and I’ve got a peace treaty with him, he ask me to be my vassal again!!! Surely cause he got both Washington and Mansa Musa in his neck.

And is it only the vassal that can break the vassalage?

Lev väl.

To answer the question Yes, only the vassal can break the Vassalage

as for the order, #2 is the only one that is really confusing.

 

[Simna]

Hej!

I'll hope this is a bug or something that will be fixed in the next patch along with this problem with my monitor loosing it's connection now and then when I'm playing The Warlord Expansion.

Lev väl.

 

[jkp1187]

I'm not sure exactly what was going on here, but some things to consider (it looks like some of the diplomatic mechanism require some clarification -- at least, this is how I understand things):

1.) If a vassal breaks free from a master, no Declaration of War (DoW) is necessarily issued. The master has the option to issue a DoW against the vassal. Remember, though, that this is the master declaring war, so if there's any penalties, it will go against him.

2.) If a third power declares war on someone's vassal, the master issues a DoW against that third power. So if America is England's vassal, and France DoW's America, England then DoW's France.

3.) Defense Pacts (DP) are automatically void if a country issues a DoW against a third power. So (per the example above) if England has a DP with Germany and France DoWs America, England's DoW against France voids its DP with Germany. Germany does nothing.

But if France were to DoW England in that scenario, both America AND Germany would DoW France, due to the vassal requirement and the DP, respectively.

4.) Vassals cannot declare war on their own. But if their masters DoW a third power, they automatically join in on the fun. So, in the above example, if England were to DoW France, America would follow suit.