Why trade with your own capital?

[MrLeN]

I like to set up trade as early as I can in the game. I also head straight for Republic, so the trade helps to keep people happy. However, I am trying to work out the best way to set up trade. I have always just built one caravan in each city and sent them to one of my own cities. That way 2 trade routes for each city are actually set up.

To explain what I mean: If I have 3 cities and they all make one caravan, and if they send that caravan to one of the three cities, I have actually set up 6 trade routes, because when you trade with yourself - a trade route is set up from the giving AND receiving city.

However, I have read a lot that people trade with their own capital. I have been trying to work out what the point of this might be. As far as I can see it's a loss, because you have to build THREE caravans in each city, instead of 1 1/2. By 1 1/2 I mean that if I have 4 cities, I'd only have to build one caravan in two of the cities and two caravans in the other two, which will allow me to set up 12 trade routes.
So, can anyone tell me why I should trade with my capital?

MrLeN

 

[funxus]

I doubt it's the fact that it is the capital that is the reason, but the SSC you want to trade with. With the SSC set up right, it will usually have more than twice as much basetrade as any other city of the same size (because of colossus), and with trade specials and probably a larger size than most cities, it's even more...

The reason therefore is that each route to the SSC (very often the capital) gives a lot more profit than to a small city. I usually trade with a good city demanding the commodity, and if no good city demands it, it goes to the SSC.

 

[MrLeN]

Thanks mate.

Do you think that the cost of building the extra caravans is worth the extra bonus?

Which leads me to another question: When trading (in general), is it just the bonus that is more, or is it the actual trade route that is more too?

Oh and another [similar] question: If you send a caravan to a place that demands the commodity, is it (also) the bonus that is more, or is it the actual trade route that benefits too?

MrLeN

 

[funxus]

I don't really know, I guess it depends on. In the long run it's probably worth it. Early on there is also the risk of getting a 0-trade route if both cities are too small, and that won't give you much.

The more trade in the cities, the bigger trade route and bonus. However, distance doesn't affect the route but only the bonus, and there are several other factors applied to both of them.

Demand only affects the bonus and not the trade route.

I'm not really a trade guru, but hopefully one of them will enter here and give better answers to your questions.

 

[MrLeN]

Thanks mate, that helped me enough

The parts I wanted to know were:

However, distance doesn't affect the route but only the bonus

and

Demand only affects the bonus and not the trade route.

MrLeN

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by funxus
I'm not really a trade guru

Funxus,

You shouldn't write 'not really'.
You should write 'not yet'
(because I am sure you will go on improving your gameplay)

Mr LeN,

1) Keep in mind that:
- A Trade Route with a foreign city is worth twice the same Trade Route with one of your own cities.
- Trade Routes are NOT related to distance
- Trade Routes are NOT related to demanded commodities
- There is a 50% bonus for 'Direct road', and 100% bonus for 'Direct RR'

Therefore, the highest Trade Routes are obtained by trading between your SSC (or biggest city) and a fat AI city linked by 'Direct RR' to your SSC.

Example:
Tim the Enchanter has managed to create 3 trade routes, with a value of 45 each, in his SSC.

2) On the contrary:
- One time bonus on delivery is directly related to distance between the origin and destination of the caravan.
- It is also directly related to demanded and not demanded commodities.
- There is a 100% bonus for intercontinental trading
-The bonus is not only gold, but also the same amount of beakers

3) Also remember that:
Superhighways and Airports greatly improve Trade in the late game.

(there would be much more to be said, but IMO if you read this carefully, you will begin to love Trade )

 

[MrLeN]

Thanks la fayette,

A Trade Route with a foreign city is worth twice the same Trade Route with one of your own cities.

Do you mean that literally, or do you just mean that it is worth somewhat more?

Also, to make trade easy, I like to trade my cities with the next closes city in a clockwise direction. I just find that it's easier to keep control of who's set up trade and who hasn't.

I never bother doing the supply and demand thing. I can't be bothered, because if I send a boat (of some sort) out to trade with a city, it hits another boat and I have to set its direction again (and I can't remember where it WAS going). It's all too much of a pain in the but.

I am just trying to work out the quickest, best and most lucrative way to set up my trade routes.

Also, why are there Freights? I mean, if I have already set up trade routes with caravans, why bother with Freights? I mean, I've got my trade routes set up 1500 years before they come about. Do I get increased trade or something?

MrLeN

 

[funxus]

As long as I keep playing, I guess 'not yet' describes me best. For every new game I play, I realise more and more the importance of trade, but I'm (still) too slow.

About 3), what and when does Airports and Superhighways give an effect? I've heard a few stories, but none have been confirmed.

 

[funxus]

MrLen, most people don't actually trade for the routes, but the one time bonus you get. The one time bonus both gives gold and the same amount of beakers (check F6 before and after a delivery that gives a lot of gold), and therfore is the best way to advance quickly, and at the same time make a lot of money.

Twice as in 2x the gold (and beakers) the delivery would have given had it been your own city.

Some techs give lower bonus payments, and some things raise them. Freights give bigger bonuses than caravans, and are also faster (2 moves).

In late game, gold, oil and uranium deliveries can e.g. give several thousands of gold (and beakers) if traded with foreign cities or your own good cities.

 

[MrLeN]

What are beakers?

MrLeN

 

[funxus]

The blue glass bottles, symbolising science. If you press F6 you'll see a long line of beakers. When you press enter after a turn (and you start cycling through your cities) the amount of beakers in each city will be added to this line, until it reaches the right side of the screen (which is when you develop a new tech and get to pick another one). The cost for each tech increases with each tech you discover, so the first tech might cost 10 beakers, but in late game the cost per tech can be several thousands of beakers.

If you deliver a caravan/freight that gives you 300 gold, 300 beakers are also added (instantly) to your next tech, and thus give you much faster discoveries.

 

[MrLeN]

Cool, I didn't know that. I always set up my trade routes, er ..for the trade routes. I never cared much about the money, because it's always like 40 - 60 bucks anyway - pah!

..but now that I know my scrience prodction is boosted, I will spend more effort on trade. Thanks mate

MrLeN

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by funxus

About 3), what and when does Airports and Superhighways give an effect? I've heard a few stories, but none have been confirmed.

(I like your 'few stories')

I could answer your question directly, but I prefer to give you the link to a post written by samson, who is the best civ2 player of all times IMO, so you can trust what you read:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64729

 

[funxus]

I might as well attach samson's answer to the question here(, and I think it's the first time I heard this story).

Originally posted by samson at Apolyton
The Airport bonus is applied when both cities have an Airport improvement. If the cities are on the same continent, the Airport bonus is 50%. If the cities are on different continents the bonus is 100%. There is no bonus if only one city has an airport.

The Superhighways bonus is 50% if only one city has the improvement and 100% if both cities have them.

I wouldn't have doubted what I read had you posted the answer yourself, but the link is quite interesting.

 

[MrLeN]

..but so late in the game, there's usually so many other things to be doing, instead of trading, right? I am in a MP game now and I know that when that stage of the game comes, I'm too busy trying to get SDI up instead of trade.

MrLeN

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by MrLeN
..but so late in the game, there's usually so many other things to be doing, instead of trading, right? I am in a MP game now and I know that when that stage of the game comes, I'm too busy trying to get SDI up instead of trade.

MrLeN

The dynamic in MP may be different as it may be difficult to make the long distance deliveries without your ships or the freights themselves getting blasted, but the idea is that if you can spend ~100g on a freight and make a demand delivery for ~1000g (not at all unusual for late game trade) then you can just buy your SDI's straight away.

 

[MrLeN]

OK, I'll give it a shot - but last game, I had 20 cities and 10 of them got nuked, and I lost them next shot - pah!

MrLeN

 

[MrLeN]

I have another question about caravans..

You know how you can use them to rush wonders?

Can you also use them to rush units and city improvements, without a loss of sheilds?

MrLeN

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by MrLeN
I have another question about caravans..

You know how you can use them to rush wonders?

Can you also use them to rush units and city improvements, without a loss of sheilds?

MrLeN

Unfortunately, no.

The only thing you can do is to use them for space ship parts. As long as you have a wonder that is unbuilt, you can put the caravans/freights into the wonder, then switch production to a spaceship part with no sheild penalty.

 

[ElephantU]

Looks like I missed some good discussion this weekend.

One-time bonus payments from caravan and freight deliveries are computed differently than the on-going trade routes set up by those deliveries. La Fayette posted the link to Samson's classic Bonus Payment thread, but we have since established that most of those "multipliers" such as type of vehicle, commodity demand, and distance do not apply to the ongoing trade routes.

The most recent discussion thread I have seen is here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90878

Note that the basic formula is (T1+T2+4)/8, so if the two cities trade combined does not exceed 3 there is no point to setting up a route. It is even worse for routes between your own cities, because they are halved (the rounding of this is one of the things in contention). The best routes have an "optimal" RR route to a foreign civ on the same continent, and SuperHighways. There is a difference in the way Airports contribute to trade routes as well, although they also allow instant movement of freights across continents and should be considered for that benefit separately. The only other improvement known to increase trade routes is Colossus.

Trade is probably the biggest advantage the human player has over the AI "players". Things are a little different in MP play, but intelligent use of trade will ALWAYS permit more gold and faster tech than another player who has not learned trade's benefits. Study Samson's formulas carefully, as you will probably want to focus on the one-time bonus payments in later MP games. One trick I've seen is to bring a few freights along with your invaders, make the deliveries first, then take the cities. You avoid the penalty for delivering to your own cities, and you prevent the other player from benefiting from the ongoing trade routes.