[GS] Will Canada offer a unique early game play experience?

[Furycrab]

The big change early game is probably that in planning your later game you likely want to try and keep some old growth forests, especially in places you can drop an ice rink, while expanding reasonably aggressively. So you'll want to lean on the fact the AI can't surprise DOW you so you can cut a few corners. We will need to wait and see what the AI logic for wanting to denounce into Dow. Might change where you expand to avoid having AIs nag you for settling too close.

Not sure if that's enough to consider cutting Magnus strategies.

It's a later game civ thought. Curious as to how powerful Diplo favor can be.

 

[UWHabs]

Even Feudalism farms are really not going to be anything special, since a triangle still only nets you 3f tiles, not any better than a regular grass farm. It's only when you get the modern agriculture that those tundra farms will actually pull their own weight.

As mentioned, I think they'll thrive most on the border of the tundra, as farms there could actually be valuable to complete other farming triangles. I think they're more of an ideal civ to settle around the tundra early, or into the tundra in order to gain resources, but then once you hit the mid-game/modern era, then you expand aggressively to the tundra. I mean, even if you just build a size-1 city with a hockey arena, there's 6 culture per city. Going aggressively for Reyna and district buying with gold, I would probably ignore production almost entirely and just rely on gold (or faith) buying. While they don't need faith for national parks, I would still be tempted by grabbing dance of the Aurora and building lots of 6 faith holy sites.

 

[Rayyy]

Unique game play experience not sure, unique cultural victory experience yes.
Having recently played a CV focused in parks (had around 10 by the end) I can tell Canada will have no problem or delay in having much more parks as long there is land. Being free of Faith generation for landing parks is such a bless. Also they won't be needing theater squares that much all of which will allow more focus on Science/expansion/infrastructure.
If you got a lot of land the diplomatic advanteges become a bengal to your win, approving resolutions for more turism or preventing others from winning.
It's funny that what makes the CV easy is the UU.
I'm betting in fast CV with them. Looking forward for it.

 

[Saltcreek]

It still feels like tundra goes from bad to bearly acceptable (after a few good civics). I am not sure why I would want this.

And the surprise war immunity, it's just a five turn breather before Formal War kicks in. And on higher difficulties you are probably getting denounced early.

This is kind of it for me. A tundra civ that does not make tundra better. What is the point?

I don't think the farms are good for food but rather housing. Any city can grow with domestic trade routes, heck theres not even ant reason to use international routes until you have alliances, which is right around the time Feudalism kicks in.

And they're not gutted without tundra as some suggest. All their other bonuses work just as well in any area of the map.

Canada is being heavily pushed as a tundra civ but as many have mentioned Canada does not really want to be in the tundra until more than 1 civic/tech is research. Not using half of Canada's abilities is kind of gutted to me. If i am going to play in grassland hills there are other civs that can do this better. Canada needs more to be a viable tundra civ.

It won't, but unless there are changes in GS to boost the benefit of higher pop cities (and I hope there are), food is an unimportant resource anyway. Canada may end up being easier for newbies because the lack of food will slow their population growth naturally, which is something you should do anyway once you're up to size 4 or so, to help you catch up to and pass the AI at higher difficulty levels.

For me, the question isn't whether they're any good, but whether they will require / reward playing the game in a different way. With the number of civs we have already, that's ultimately my only care in any new civ. And mostly that's about whether you will want to play the civ differently in the early era, as if you get late game bonuses anyway without having to do anything different in the first half of the game, that feels less rewarding than late game bonuses that are enhanced because you played well up to that time to earn them.

I spent some time thinking about this and I cannot think of anything unique that you would do with Canada in the early game. You are going to build your commercials, theatres, and campus districts as you have to have a strong culture base before you get those late game bonuses. You will probably rush that early pantheon and then get a religion at some point. Outside of that you just sim and play the waiting game for to unlock the civ in the late game. The question is will the late game bonuses that Canada receives be enough to actually win a long culture game? I am guessing no (at least in multiplayer).

Also, I really feel that not being able to war city states is a serious disadvantage. Most of my games require me to war a CS because they are in a position that blocks my expansion(s) and now I have no way to deal with that. If Canada got some sort of bonus from city states then that could offset this but not the case.

Edit: I really feel that Canada needs +1 food and either +1 produciton or culture from tundra to make it really unique. Also, it needs to be able to war a CS in the absence of a unique CS bonus (such as diplo favor for suze)

 

[Lily_Lancer]

No, just a Blank Civ with terrible starting bias. Yes Canada can build farms on Tundras, but tundras are tundras, why not settle on grassland/plain and build farm on grassland/plains?

The tundra farm is only a source to high neighborhood gold I guess,

Also for mines. Are you sure you have tundra iron beforing seeing iron? I advise you to research bronze working first, then decide.

At least I never see tundra horses, so Canada UA make no use for horses.

 

[pgm123]

No, just a Blank Civ with terrible starting bias. Yes Canada can build farms on Tundras, but tundras are tundras, why not settle on grassland/plain and build farm on grassland/plains?

The tundra farm is only a source to high neighborhood gold I guess,

Also for mines. Are you sure you have tundra iron beforing seeing iron? I advise you to research bronze working first, then decide.

At least I never see tundra horses, so Canada UA make no use for horses.

I think you're probably right, but we don't really know anything about powered/unpowered cities. We also don't know how much resource caps will constraint mid-game conquest. It's possible that the extra resource extraction is pretty useful.

 

[Rayyy]

Edit: I really feel that Canada needs +1 food and either +1 produciton or culture from tundra to make it really unique. Also, it needs to be able to war a CS in the absence of a unique CS bonus (such as diplo favor for suze)

That would be too much powerfull IMO.

To me the tundra bonuses seems more like a bit of flavour for settling secundary/park cities in tundra than anything else. And even arguable weak bonuses towards tundra settling, it's decent bonus: double production form strategic resources, extra food and housing makes decent small cities (plus buying the better tiles).

The main thing is that their true power - and they are really OP in this point - resides in the easiness of generating turism via parks for cultural and diplomatic victory, nothing to do with the tundra, bias or other stuff people are complaining about.

Anyway, it's a late game civ and with the new era I guess the late game will be more engaging and enjoyable.

 

[Saltcreek]

I think you're probably right, but we don't really know anything about powered/unpowered cities. We also don't know how much resource caps will constraint mid-game conquest. It's possible that the extra resource extraction is pretty useful.

I think this is what has a lot of people upset. How could the developers walk away with thinking that a farm in the tundra would suddenly make tundra good. It is like they completely forgot about Russia and their bonuses. Maybe there is something to be learned tomorrow but I am not hopeful.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The main thing is that their true power - and they are really OP in this point - resides in the easiness of generating turism via parks for cultural and diplomatic victory, nothing to do with the tundra, bias or other stuff people are complaining about.

We don't know for sure that getting National Parks will be easier. Mounties come at the same time as Naturalists and National Parks, so Canada doesn't get access earlier. We're assuming the cost for a Mountie will be less than the cost of a Naturalist (and more flexible, since not Faith only), but we don't know for sure.

The bigger issue is finding a place to put the National Park. For most civs, Mountains and Tundra are great places for National Parks. Canada, however, may be forced to use those spaces for Campuses and Hockey Rinks.

 

[pgm123]

I think this is what has a lot of people upset. How could the developers walk away with thinking that a farm in the tundra would suddenly make tundra good. It is like they completely forgot about Russia and their bonuses. Maybe there is something to be learned tomorrow but I am not hopeful.

I think you're assuming that the farms is the best part of the bonus. We don't know that. It's equally plausible this is the reason it matters:

+100% extraction rate of accumulated resources on Snow, Snow Hills, Tundra Hills and Tundra tiles.
​

We don't know how important providing electricity is to cities. We don't know how much of a constraint resource extraction speed is on building units. We've all seen iron and oil in the tundra. Canada can settle near (not on) the tundra, quickly buy out to the third ring to get the resource, and have some benefit to those tiles (hockey rink is the main one, but a Feudalism farm will at least make those viable). It's possible that the double extraction speed makes these cities useful. You're not going to just settle on any tundra tile; you'll need to be strategic. But it has potential benefits.

I suspect they're not even thinking of Canada as directly competing with Russia. Canada is primarily focused on the Diplomacy Victory anyway.

Edit: On National Parks, being able to build them with production is a huge advantage.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I think you're assuming that the farms is the best part of the bonus. We don't know that. It's equally plausible this is the reason it matters:

+100% extraction rate of accumulated resources on Snow, Snow Hills, Tundra Hills and Tundra tiles.
​

We don't know how important providing electricity is to cities. We don't know how much of a constraint resource extraction speed is on building units. We've all seen iron and oil in the tundra. Canada can settle near (not on) the tundra, quickly buy out to the third ring to get the resource, and have some benefit to those tiles (hockey rink is the main one, but a Feudalism farm will at least make those viable). It's possible that the double extraction speed makes these cities useful. You're not going to just settle on any tundra tile; you'll need to be strategic. But it has potential benefits.

I suspect they're not even thinking of Canada as directly competing with Russia. Canada is primarily focused on the Diplomacy Victory anyway.

Edit: On National Parks, being able to build them with production is a huge advantage.

I agree, I expect the double production of "consumable resources" from tundra will be the biggest factor, plus the Hockey Rink adjacency bonuses.

The farm may be better than we think if floods and volcanoes boost a series of tundra tiles, and the game rules change to reward bigger cities. Right now, I don't spend Builder charges to place a farm anywhere, as +1 Food is never worth it as of R&F, where keeping your pop small so you can sell your luxuries is better than growing big.

re being able to build Mounties with production being a huge advantage, I'll say it's an advantage until we know the production cost. To get the most out of the ability, you're going to buy the Mounties with Gold while you let the city continue to run projects. If they cost less in Gold than Naturalists cost in Faith, then it's a big advantage. Otherwise, it'll be a small advantage by giving you extra flexibility.

 

[Saltcreek]

That would be too much powerfull IMO.

To me the tundra bonuses seems more like a bit of flavour for settling secundary/park cities in tundra than anything else. And even arguable weak bonuses towards tundra settling, it's decent bonus: double production form strategic resources, extra food and housing makes decent small cities (plus buying the better tiles).

The main thing is that their true power - and they are really OP in this point - resides in the easiness of generating turism via parks for cultural and diplomatic victory, nothing to do with the tundra, bias or other stuff people are complaining about.

Anyway, it's a late game civ and with the new era I guess the late game will be more engaging and enjoyable.

I am not seeing how it would be too powerful. A tundra farm is a slightly less bad tundra tile which is just plain bad. Adding food and culture would help Canada get ahead or even stay even in early to mid culture game. Right now with how the bonuses are set up there is nothing to set Canada apart from any other civ, nothing special that makes it unique. You are going to move to the tundra in the mid/late game once those cities become "not bad" but this is not really different than any other civ (except for Russia which will take an early tundra settle). Also, it is not double production from strategic resources, it is double extraction.

National Parks have very strict requirements and you are not going to be dropping one in every city so while it is a nice to have perk it is very late and I have my doubts that they will be enough if you are playing against another culture civ. There needs to be something in the early game to push you to the late.

We don't know for sure that getting National Parks will be easier. Mounties come at the same time as Naturalists and National Parks, so Canada doesn't get access earlier. We're assuming the cost for a Mountie will be less than the cost of a Naturalist (and more flexible, since not Faith only), but we don't know for sure.

The bigger issue is finding a place to put the National Park. For most civs, Mountains and Tundra are great places for National Parks. Canada, however, may be forced to use those spaces for Campuses and Hockey Rinks.

If they the National Parks came a bit earlier or had less strict placement requirements then I could see this being a bit more powerful but I share the same thoughts. You need to get to them first and that may mean having poor cities in the process which in turn means you are probably behind.

I think you're assuming that the farms is the best part of the bonus. We don't know that. It's equally plausible this is the reason it matters:

+100% extraction rate of accumulated resources on Snow, Snow Hills, Tundra Hills and Tundra tiles.
​

We don't know how important providing electricity is to cities. We don't know how much of a constraint resource extraction speed is on building units. We've all seen iron and oil in the tundra. Canada can settle near (not on) the tundra, quickly buy out to the third ring to get the resource, and have some benefit to those tiles (hockey rink is the main one, but a Feudalism farm will at least make those viable). It's possible that the double extraction speed makes these cities useful. You're not going to just settle on any tundra tile; you'll need to be strategic. But it has potential benefits.

I suspect they're not even thinking of Canada as directly competing with Russia. Canada is primarily focused on the Diplomacy Victory anyway.

Edit: On National Parks, being able to build them with production is a huge advantage.

Canada is primarily a culture civ, it was stated in the first look. Double extraction on iron is nothing unique as England gets this too and the later strategics are later in the game - you have to get there first. I bring up Russia because Russia offers an unique game play experience and with Canada I am not seeing this at all. Also, the problem with late game civs is that you either need ridiculous strong late game perks to offset the early game civs or you need some sort of early game accelerator to help you not fall too far behind in the early game so that your late perks are not essentially useless.

 

[pgm123]

I am not seeing how it would be too powerful. A tundra farm is a slightly less bad tundra tile which is just plain bad. Adding food and culture would help Canada get ahead or even stay even in early to mid culture game. Right now with how the bonuses are set up there is nothing to set Canada apart from any other civ, nothing special that makes it unique. You are going to move to the tundra in the mid/late game once those cities become "not bad" but this is not really different than any other civ (except for Russia which will take an early tundra settle). Also, it is not double production from strategic resources, it is double extraction.

National Parks have very strict requirements and you are not going to be dropping one in every city so while it is a nice to have perk it is very late and I have my doubts that they will be enough if you are playing against another culture civ. There needs to be something in the early game to push you to the late.



If they the National Parks came a bit earlier or had less strict placement requirements then I could see this being a bit more powerful but I share the same thoughts. You need to get to them first and that may mean having poor cities in the process which in turn means you are probably behind.



Canada is primarily a culture civ, it was stated in the first look. Double extraction on iron is nothing unique as England gets this too and the later strategics are later in the game - you have to get there first. I bring up Russia because Russia offers an unique game play experience and with Canada I am not seeing this at all. Also, the problem with late game civs is that you either need ridiculous strong late game perks to offset the early game civs or you need some sort of early game accelerator to help you not fall too far behind in the early game so that your late perks are not essentially useless.

England also gets it, but it doesn't have the Diplomacy bonuses. But people are also assuming that it is weak for England and we don't know that at all.

I would not be slightly surprised if the #1 complaint about GS is that resources aren't accumulating fast enough, which slows down their warmongering.

 

[Saltcreek]

This all goes back to the original question in this thread. Does Canada posses an unique early game experience and my answer is no. There is nothing special that sets Canada apart from any other civ in the early game unless you want to count the fact that you could literally be blocked from expanding by city states because you cannot war them.

 

[King William I]

This all goes back to the original question in this thread. Does Canada posses an unique early game experience and my answer is no. There is nothing special that sets Canada apart from any other civ in the early game unless you want to count the fact that you could literally be blocked from expanding by city states because you cannot war them.

But since every other civ has some sort of early game bonus, you could argue that Canada's lack of one is unique

 

[UWHabs]

This all goes back to the original question in this thread. Does Canada posses an unique early game experience and my answer is no. There is nothing special that sets Canada apart from any other civ in the early game unless you want to count the fact that you could literally be blocked from expanding by city states because you cannot war them.

Their only real early game bonuses are:
-possibly double iron production, since I do often see tundra iron
-prevent AI from surprise warring you in the ancient era
-cheaper tile buying for eurekas

Although the negative, since we all know they'll have a tundra bias, is that they're going to have terrible starting terrain. So with the little bit extra safety net, maybe that can let them expand a bit more aggressively early. But since the AI will often simply denounce you for no reason, it's not like they're 100% safe.

 

[Saltcreek]

But since every other civ has some sort of early game bonus, you could argue that Canada's lack of one is unique

That is definitely one way to look at it

Their only real early game bonuses are:
-possibly double iron production, since I do often see tundra iron
-prevent AI from surprise warring you in the ancient era
-cheaper tile buying for eurekas

Although the negative, since we all know they'll have a tundra bias, is that they're going to have terrible starting terrain. So with the little bit extra safety net, maybe that can let them expand a bit more aggressively early. But since the AI will often simply denounce you for no reason, it's not like they're 100% safe.

Double iron extraction (not production) is not unique as it is shared with England you are right that people will just denounce early so they can war if they want. That ability is so boring. I would also add that not being able to war CS is a big negative.

 

[Rayyy]

We don't know for sure that getting National Parks will be easier. Mounties come at the same time as Naturalists and National Parks, so Canada doesn't get access earlier. We're assuming the cost for a Mountie will be less than the cost of a Naturalist (and more flexible, since not Faith only), but we don't know for sure.

The bigger issue is finding a place to put the National Park. For most civs, Mountains and Tundra are great places for National Parks. Canada, however, may be forced to use those spaces for Campuses and Hockey Rinks.

They get earlier Parks in the sense they don't need to accumulate Faith to buy 1 by 1, they can just produce (% bonus cards)/buy the UU for all the spots they got in a matter of turns. The real issue is just grabbing land/settling for parks. I don't find hard finding place for NP, specially if you are playing for it, planning them is a must for Canada. Also there are city parks, Eiffel tower, rinks and planting woods for appeal.

I am not seeing how it would be too powerful. A tundra farm is a slightly less bad tundra tile which is just plain bad. Adding food and culture would help Canada get ahead or even stay even in early to mid culture game. Right now with how the bonuses are set up there is nothing to set Canada apart from any other civ, nothing special that makes it unique. You are going to move to the tundra in the mid/late game once those cities become "not bad" but this is not really different than any other civ (except for Russia which will take an early tundra settle). Also, it is not double production from strategic resources, it is double extraction.

National Parks have very strict requirements and you are not going to be dropping one in every city so while it is a nice to have perk it is very late and I have my doubts that they will be enough if you are playing against another culture civ. There needs to be something in the early game to push you to the late.

I think it would be too powerful considering that it's not what their strength is about. They need park spots primarily, regardless of tundra, eventually you will occupy the tundra and there's a soft bonus. But I do think and agree that the tundra concern is valid for capital. When we think that Canada is all about tundra, yes it is bad and underwhelming.

And again, I must insist that planning NPs isn't that hard or strict, at least shouldn't be when you are playing a civ that focus in it.

EDIT: aww only now I noticed the thread is about EARLY game play

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

EDIT: aww only now I noticed the thread is about EARLY game play

It's okay. If you're going to try and find enough tundra locations to have (a) functional Campuses so you don't fall too far behind in science, (b) good sites for Hockey Rinks so you can catch up on culture, and (c) not use up all your national park sites with the above two needs, you're going to need to plan early.

 

[King William I]

I still think the main use of tundra farms is gonna be housing coupled with domestic routes