Windmills vs Mines. Waterwheels and Workshops vs Cottages and Farms.

Gothic_Empire

AKA, Ramen Empire
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
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Heya,

Late in the game, I find myself with more improvement types than I'm quite sure what to do with.

When should I use a workshop instead of a cottage? When should a windmill go up instead of a new mine? Are there instances where I should replace one with the other?

And what the heck do Waterwheels even DO?

#

If I have a plains/forest/hill/rive tile in one of my early cities, I try not to chop it because I know that, optimally, it will produce the most hammers with a lumber mill. But I also know that, until I get to those techs, it's producing far fewer hammers. To chop, or not to chop...
 
windmills go in commerce/GP farm cities because they provide food/commerce instead of production.

err waterwheels i think are good for production cities with lots of rivers?

and workshops are for production when u are using state property (negates the -1 food)
 
When should I use a workshop instead of a cottage?

Workshops make a good improvement when you need the city to be production rich. They are especially good for non-river, flat tiles when you're running state property, which itself is good for a large or spread out empire, i.e. when you're going for domination. Due to caste system, more workships will also be built on a cultural victory game. Caste system is useful for cultural vicotry due to unlimited artists in your gp farm city when you would otherwise be limited to two.

Cottages are an investment and, given time, will turn into awesome commerce tiles. In at least a few of your cities, half the tiles should be towns. The towns will later net yields comparable to a gold resource. But sometimes even cottage cities need to build something like libraries and universities, so the other half of the tiles will be production tiles supported by food resources. In absence of hills, a workshop may be your best option.

When should a windmill go up instead of a new mine? Are there instances where I should replace one with the other?

Several factors:

Replace growth-limiting mines: When you look at a city, you need to determine if it has a food surplus. Can this city grow to 20+ population eventually? If building mines would limit the potential growth of the city, build windmills.

Is my leader financial?: With electricity, financial leaders will get better yields from windmills than other leaders. A grassland hill next to a river makes a good place for high-yield windmills if your leader is financial even with machinery alone.

The resource factor: The long-term advantage of using a lot of mines is that they may randomly acquire a random mine-based resource you have the technology to see. I have been told that the odds increase as you learn of more resources that can be mined. So if you don't have gems, silver, or gold, one of your many mines may randomly find one of these resources eventually. It's not something to count on, but it's a consideration. It happens at least once, but more often 3 or 4 times in most of my games, but it's not necessarily a resource I didn't have. Also if you discover a resource via new technology and a windmill is already on it, you'll usually want to replace the windmill with a mine.

Technology factor: I alluded to this a bit before but windmills are enhanced further by electricity with extra commerce, and replaceable parts with an extra hammer. Also, windmills get a further commerce boost with environmentalism, enabled by medicine. Mines become more likely to pop resources as you discover technologies that reveal mine-based resources (bronze working adds copper to possibilities, physics adds uranium, industrialism adds aluminum). Mines get an extra production with railroads.

It all depends on if the city needs food, commerce, or production.

And what the heck do Waterwheels even DO?

They add only 1 extra production to the tile at first, with the idea that production is being supplemented by a wheel turned by the river. You can only build one per tile-length stretch of river, i.e. you can't build them on river bends or across from another watermill.

Watermills become more worthwhile with replaceable parts and electricity. They're usually the best thing to build where you can when you're running state property due to the food bonus.

If I have a plains/forest/hill/rive tile in one of my early cities, I try not to chop it because I know that, optimally, it will produce the most hammers with a lumber mill. But I also know that, until I get to those techs, it's producing far fewer hammers. To chop, or not to chop...

Keep in mind that each forest gives you a half a healthy point, rounded down. But lumbermills do not yield more hammers than mines, they simply allow you to keep the healthy bonus with equal production yields.

I try to chop forests in a checkerboard pattern to maximize regrowth rate in unused tiles, but don't sacrifice short term growth for long-term growth or hammers. I often leave exactly 2 forests in most cities for the endgame, but far more wherever I want to put the national parks wonder.

Also note that when timing chopping look for bonuses: imperialistic leaders will get more out of it when producing a settler, industrious to building a wonder... the base rate for chopping will go up with mathematics, but you may need/want to chop earlier, for example when you really, really need a wonder like great lighthouse on archipelago or great wall on pangea.
 
The answer is a big huge 'it depends'. All improvements that receive the full boost from civics and techs are good.

Every improvement that receives its full benefits from civics is excellent. Windmills, towns and Watermills are about equal in power, workshops aren't quite as good but useful for projects since you can't hurry those.

***

If you tweak your civics to make the best use of some of these, use these improvements above the others.

Typical example: you plan to stay in Universal Suffrage and Free Speech. Although cottages take some time to mature, this is often a good lategame plan because cottages can be built on a wide variety of tiles and receive their full bonuses considerably earlier than the others.

You are making certain concessions to push your towns over the edge (Universal suffrage means you want to generate your output directly from tiles; specialists from excessive food aren't too impressive), but also receive the benefit of being able to convert gold into production.
Mines become inefficient if they require resourceless farms to support. Grassland hills can be cottaged themselves, plains/desert/tundra hills should be windmilled: they're too good to leave idle (the latter are marginal without another bonus like FIN, Environmentalism or riverside) but the fewer farms we need to support them the better because that means more juicy cottages.

***

One of the trickier questions is whether you're optimising for just enough food to get by or whether you want to generate an excess for specialists/whipping (possibly Kremlin-assisted). This often determines whether you want to shoot of corporations or give them a miss and exploit the advantages of State Property/Environmentalism (rarely) instead.
 
An hill can also be grass or plains.
Mine on grass/hill= -1F +3H 0C. Mine on plains/hill= -2F +4H 0C.
Wind on grass/hill= 0F +1H +1C. Wind on plains/hills= -1F +2H +1C.
So, the "conversion" of mine to windmill loses 2H to gain 1F 1C.

What is better? As said it depends on your goals to the city.
True, but sometimes your decision about the goal can depend on the best
improvements you'll put there.

Then, consider the food situation and balance it with the happy cap (health
cap shall be considered food).

Always go from the city to the tile, not the opposite.

Mix the mines/windmills with the farms/cottages or water/workshop option.

Best regards,
 
It's all about the food balance. If my food count in a production city is short by 1, I'll switch one of the mines to a windmill to trim it up. Or if I have one excess food in a commerce city, I'll switch one of the windmills to a mine.

Watermills I consider a speciality improvement for State Property food bonuses in production river cities. I'll also include a few in a commerce city to make it better able to build its build queue (peeling cities back away slightly from specialization).
 
I haven't utilized a CE in quite a few games. In fact, since I started playing Noble and Prince (Earth 18)

Since I'm almost exclusively in Caste System (+1:hammers: for workshops):

All plains tiles in production cities are workshops. After chemistry they provide 5:hammers: each and with state property they yield 1:food: 5:hammers:
All hills in production cities are mined. After railroad, they yield 5:hammers: on plains, 4:hammers: on grassland

For economic cities, I still mine the hills at first so they can build their multiplier buildings, but then replace them with windmills (unless a resource popped). For me, any especially food rich cities get all flat land farmed to support specialists. In non-food heavy, but non-production heavy cities, I'll make sure the city can feed a population of 20 and cottage the rest of the flatland squares.
 
I always farm grassland near rivers, cottages on some plains, workshops on other non-river plains. Mines always go on hills, unless there are more mines than farmable land and then some hills get windmills. That's what I typically do
 
Excellent feedback, everyone! Thanks!

I've been trying to optimize individual TILES instead of entire cities, and now I see that this may have been holding me back a lot.
 
I prefer to keep my :hammers: counts and my :commerce: counts separate from each other. When it comes to hills, IMO :hammers: always triumph :commerce:. So I'll always look at the :hammers: yield for that stuff. Mines always have a higher :hammers: yield than windmills.
 
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