Windmills vs. Mining of Hills

[Trout]

All,
I would like to get some advice on this subject. It seems to me that windmills are almost always superior unless there is a resource being mined for two reasons. First, more food is almost always the best way to go. Secondly during golden ages, you get a bigger bump unless the mine is river-side.

In other words, golden ages give you extra hammer AND extra coin but only if you have one to begin with on the tile. So a 1-3 mined hill will only get a bump of a fourth hammer. Whereas that same hill with a windmill will be 2-1-1 and be bumped to a 2-2-2 hill tile during a golden age. In other words, an extra hammer and coin. The windmill also gets an extra hammer with Replaceable Parts which in my mind is again another argument for the windmill being superior. I know that a railroad gives a mine an extra hammer but it seems as if that just cancels out the extra hammer that the windmill got with RP.

I know that in BTS random events will sometimes result in discovering a resource if you are working a mined hill, but I don't believe that event which doesn't happen very often overcomes the advantage that windmills have over mines.

Does anybody disagree???

 

[drewisfat]

Yes. There are many small considerations.
- If you want to make the point that > then you have to allow the counterpoint of > . You get more options with hammers since at a bare minimum they can be converted back to commerce through building wealth and failgold.
- Mines take 4 turns to build as opposed to windmills' 5 turns. Massing windmills will require more workers due to this in combination with the faster growth. Additional workers have an upfront cost and a per turn cost.
- Generally it's better to specialize cities and by extension those cities' tiles instead of being a jack of all trades. Production cities are going to be tailored to that purpose and have multiplying buildings and things that enhanced military units. They're also going to be goal oriented. I may not care from a civilization level if I have 1 more or 1 more , but if I'm trying to win a wonder race I want the city producing it to have every possible. Commerce cities on the other hand, are probably going to mostly be working cottage improvements.
- In a low city I'm reliant on whips to build anything. One or two windmills isn't going to change that calculus, but a couple mines might give me some slow building options, like lowering the pop cost of whipping an expensive building.
- If I'm using slavery growing as large as possible is not inherently beneficial, since high pop cities' food bars refill more slowly. If my surplus is high enough that my regrowth speed exceeds whip anger decay, then the option of working a tile that gives a deficit in exchange for extra is desirable.
- If I'm done using slavery there can be a benefit to fine tuning the precise amount of in a city. Pops cost 2 each so a 1 surplus is undesirable and choosing between a mine and a windmill is one of the easiest ways to make an adjustment.
- The point about benefits with a GA is well met but I don't believe it is as big a consideration as you are making it out to be. I usually have 2-3 GAs a game. If I'm bothering to improve and work hills they're probably riverside. GAs are often used in coordination with a military unit buildup so may be >>> . Lastly, GAs increase GP generation, so in tandem with switching to pacifism/caste in any cities where GPP is relevant I'm likely to work neither mines nor windmills during the GA, intentionally draining the city's food bar to run additional specialists.
- Tech-wise the key techs for windmills just aren't priorities. Machinery isn't along an optimal tech path, because it doesn't lead to either a big eco boost or mil boost (unless China). It makes poor tradebait as the AIs prioritize it. It's eventually needed, but usually I'm trading for it, so it may be quite a while before windmills are even available. Similarly, Replaceable Parts comes at a time where I'm going to be prioritizing Liberalism for the free tech, and/or Steel for cannons and/or Mil Trad for cuirs.
- Riverside windmills with a FIN civ are more preferable to mines as 2 > 1 generally, although riverside cottages are also better and would remain the priority. *On the other hand, IND will favor mines more for the enhanced failgold return.

 

[Nick723]

Just as a follow up - does anyone ever build cottages on hills?

I find myself building plenty of riverside plains cottages but never any riverside grassland hills cottages, and I’m not sure why.

I guess the alternative for plains is a farm which is very underwhelming, but mines / windmills serve a better purpose?

 

[Pangaea]

Excellent summary by @drewisfat. I only build windmills in the late game, post-RP. Before that they're kinda crap tbh. Yeah sure, you get +1 food compared to a green hill or whatever, but it's the same yield as a farmed riverside plains, which is also crap. I'd rather work a scientists than that. After replaceable parts they become more worthy, and even more so after electricity. Naturally, in the IW city you want railroaded mines instead, and you can even workshop over some resources if that is better.

Just as a follow up - does anyone ever build cottages on hills?

Don't think I've ever done it. Probably has a use here and there, but I simply don't do it.

 

[migalhone]

I thought cottages could only be built on flat grass/plain/tundra tiles?

 

[AcaMetis]

You can put cottages on hills as well (I believe Tundra hills must be riverside to put a cottage on it?), it's just that practically no one ever does it. Myself included.

No idea why I never put a cottage on a hill, come to think of it, but...I don't .

 

[Pangaea]

They can only be put on green hills btw, not plain hills. But it's simply not something I do (but the AI will sometimes spam them, if in the mood).

 

[sampsa]

I build some capital green hill cottages (especially if FIN). It's the same as plains cottage and I think it's generally superior to a mine.

 

[Orion Pax]

You can put cottages on hills as well (I believe Tundra hills must be riverside to put a cottage on it?), it's just that practically no one ever does it. Myself included..

Yeah, any tundra that has fresh water in fact can be improved, which I often overlook. Think tundra hills can still only get mines and windmills? It's grass hills that can do cottages I think, like @migalhone was saying. But same here - I almost never do it, unsure why.

As for windmills in general (OP), yeah agree with much here. I don't think 1 & 1 is a good way to spend , so I usually keep it as a mine unless I'm FIN and can get 3 on a river, or until Replaceable Parts. Usually at that point I’m trying to scrape out a little extra food to keep growing and work a specialist (now ideally with Representation), only now can retain most of the . So rounds out the city for a bit, until Bio and State Property. At that point I often come off those tiles, Windmill or Mine, to work more specialists. Until Electricity makes them more valuable again. If I'm going that deep into the game I'm likely aiming for Space and thus want to keep my up (and my pop for specialists), so keeping windmills now becomes preferred. Similar if I'm going for Diplo: keep population growing. It's kind of an ebb and flow though.

 

[ArchGhost]

You can put cottages on hills as well (I believe Tundra hills must be riverside to put a cottage on it?), it's just that practically no one ever does it. Myself included.

No idea why I never put a cottage on a hill, come to think of it, but...I don't .

If it's a green hill (Ph can't be cottaged, I never tried a tundra or ice hill) it's kinda ok. It's the same as putting one on a plain essentially-- get 1f1h instead of 2f0h. So not great, but can done in a pinch, quite a bit better if also a riverside hill as it immediately starts as a 4 yield tile then. A mine would still be better if you can build economy though at least if you aren't FIN, for up to 10 turns. I do it sometimes in games with extreme economic crunch and an abundance of food (hello Europe on Earth18!)



In response to OP, the biggest detriment to windmills is they require tech improvements to match up against a mine, and they come much later (both the initial windmill tech at Machinery and the upgrades at RP/Electricity). And then you have to spend worker turns replacing them if you already had a mine there.

Mines, especially green or special resource hills are good tiles but as somebody here (krikav or fishman or probably many others) said the biggest problem is sparing the worker turns to improve them. But they end up being very solid tiles whether you whip, build wealth, or slow build once they are emplaced. Windmills I usually don't even look at until at least RP is in. Once you have all the improvements for them, they are nice tiles especially if FIN, but I think a lot of that is balancing out with workshops getting stronger on flatlands too at the same time and thus the food/commerce gain on windmills gets more attractive in hammer economies.

And another thing that I think drew touched on already in one way or another, commerce is not equal to hammers. A tile with 4 total yield in food+hammers is stronger than one with 4 total yield in food+hammers+commerce, as commerce can only be used for economy for the most part. Food and hammers can be repurposed at will much easier than commerce (which is chiefly repurposed from tech/gold to hammers through US) directly through slavery, build wealth/research, producing settlers/workers/improvement buildings, or indirectly by running specialists/working more tiles etc.

 

[Trout]

Thanks for all of the feedback. When I think of how I actually utilize these in actual play, I really don't work a windmill tile before RP or a mined hill before railroad unless in a Golden Age in a city that is not trying to generate a GP during such Golden Age. Because a 2-1-1 tile or 1-3 tile both suck and are only good for being whipped away. The only exception I can think of is when I am in a race for a wonder where I may work a mined hill because I need maximum hammers right away in that city. I didn't initially think of the Financial trait angle because I tend to not play financial civs unless I am just trying to see what max score I can obtain with playing Incas. I think this falls into one of those healthy debates like "which leader trait is most powerful" where very good players will strongly disagree with each other on certain things. But you guys have made me think harder about this subject because it appears most of you prefer mines vs. windmills unless playing a Financial civ.

 

[crullerdonut]

You can put cottages on hills as well (I believe Tundra hills must be riverside to put a cottage on it?), it's just that practically no one ever does it. Myself included.

They can only be put on green hills btw, not plain hills. But it's simply not something I do (but the AI will sometimes spam them, if in the mood).

The rule with Cottages (and Farms, and Workshops) is that the tile must have at least 1 in order to build it. This 1 can come from the terrain itself, from a Resource, or from a Random Event (such as the volcanic ash from volcanic eruptions). In addition to this rule, Farms and Workshops can only be built on Flatland.
Additionally, for Tundra, Ice, and Desert terrain, there is a requirement for Cottages/Farms/Workshops that the tile have direct access to Fresh Water.

• This means that Hills/Plains tiles can support a Cottage, so long as the tile has 1, e.g. coming from a Resource like Sheep.
• A riverside Hills/Tundra tile can support a Cottage if it has 1 coming from, e.g. a Deer.
• A Flatlands riverside Desert tile can typically support a Cottage/Farm/Workshop because it gets +3 from Floodplains (made during map generation) and it has direct access to Fresh Water from the river. However, if the Floodplains is removed (either by Fallout, or by building a City there and having it razed, or by Global Warming), then the bare riverside Desert can no longer support the building of new Cottages.
• A Flatlands Ice or Desert tile next to a freshwater lake, and which has +1 from volcanic ash, can support a new Cottage/Farm/Workshop.
• If the 1 is removed by tile conversion by Global Warming, the Improvement is not destroyed. In other words, the rules only affect initial building of these Improvements.

In summary, the rules are like this. To initially build a Cottage, Farm, or Workshop:

1. The tile must have at least 1 from the terrain, a Resource, or a Random Event;
   
2. In addition, if the tile is Tundra or Ice or Desert, the tile must have direct access to Fresh Water;
3. In addition, for Farms/Workshops, the tile must not have a Hill.

In practice, these rules are quite obscure because they just don't come up very often. How often would someone want to build a Cottage on a Hills/Plains Sheep, rather than building a Pasture? How often would someone have a volcanic ash on an Ice tile with access to Fresh Water?

 

[Pangaea]

How often would someone have a volcanic ash on an Ice tile with access to Fresh Water?

Perhaps more likely for people living in Iceland (and possibly causing planes to be grounded)

 

[Lennier]

Yes, that is an amazing interesting random event.

 

[6K Man]

I get your point re food being the most important thing. But - that's largely because of Slavery, and by the time Windmills become viable (Replaceable Parts or later), Slavery is often on the way out. Guilds/Chemistry + Caste makes it really hard for me to keep running Slavery, although I know some stick with it.

By the midgame, most of my cities are production-focused. There's a cottaged capital and maybe some other riverside commerce cities, a GP farm or two, and everything else is hammer-focused, which allows me to build lots of units for conquest, or more often, build wealth for upgrades or to keep my economy going during a conquest phase. Mines are better for that.

I do build Windmills more post-Electricity, and in my capital (instead of Mines), and where my food surplus is an odd number. And they're still a good option if you are Financial and they are riverside. But by the midgame, it's mostly Mines/Farms/Workshops for me, with Watermills eventually supplanting some of the last 2.

 

[Pangaea]

As I was reading that post, @6K Man, I expected you to make a case for windmills. I do see your point, though, especially when building Wealth. I tend to do things a little differently, and prefer to use windmills over mines because that allows the city to grow bigger and work more tiles, and to work more workshops (also without state property).

I also like windmills for golden ages, they are great then. Even desert hill windmills are worth working I'd say, after replaceable parts.

Naturally this transformation depends on worker turns as well, and whether they are free for this (I find they are usually unemployed in this era).

 

[6K Man]

@Pangaea

I go back and forth on Windmills vs Mines. I guess the main thrust of my comment was to rebut the idea that windmills are almost always superior. In a vacuum, the food and commerce from a Windmill can more than offset the production from a mine. But in the mid game, when I'm out of Slavery, more food often means I'm growing into unhappiness. Particularly if there's a war on (and later, when I'm trying to avoid going into Emancipation). I'd rather stagnate on a 1F Mine (or several of them) than have a 1, 2, or 5F surplus from Windmills.

Hammers are nice because they're so flexible - build units, build money, build culture for border pops, build spaceship parts, etc. Food stops being quite so flexible when not in Slavery.

You alluded to State Property - a lot of the determination depends on my civics. State Property Workshops eliminate a lot of food needs. Conversely, if you are in Caste and/or Representation/Pacifism, you may want to squeeze as much food as possible out, to run more specialists.

 

[Orion Pax]

You alluded to State Property - a lot of the determination depends on my civics. State Property Workshops eliminate a lot of food needs. Conversely, if you are in Caste and/or Representation/Pacifism, you may want to squeeze as much food as possible out, to run more specialists.

I find State Property / Biology / Electricity a very interesting sequence of techs in how they change the value of my tiles so rapidly. Those techs come so close together, and have similar effect of boost. But the impact is slightly different in each city based on its tiles

And lets not forget watermills (though not the focus of the OP). Often that is the most exciting boost from SP for me. With Electricity coming soon, those become serious power tiles.

 

[6K Man]

And lets not forget watermills (though not the focus of the OP). Often that is the most exciting boost from SP for me. With Electricity coming soon, those become serious power tiles.

SP Watermills are ridiculous. Even with no food specials, you can get 100+ base hammers out of a rivered flatland city with SP, Watermills/Workshops, Levee, and a grim determination to avoid Emancipation.

 

[Trout]

I get your point re food being the most important thing. But - that's largely because of Slavery, and by the time Windmills become viable (Replaceable Parts or later), Slavery is often on the way out. Guilds/Chemistry + Caste makes it really hard for me to keep running Slavery, although I know some stick with it.

By the midgame, most of my cities are production-focused. There's a cottaged capital and maybe some other riverside commerce cities, a GP farm or two, and everything else is hammer-focused, which allows me to build lots of units for conquest, or more often, build wealth for upgrades or to keep my economy going during a conquest phase. Mines are better for that.

I do build Windmills more post-Electricity, and in my capital (instead of Mines), and where my food surplus is an odd number. And they're still a good option if you are Financial and they are riverside. But by the midgame, it's mostly Mines/Farms/Workshops for me, with Watermills eventually supplanting some of the last 2.

6K Man. I can see that for how you play, windmills are sub-optimal. I tend to play with corporations instead of SP. Which means that I do stay in slavery into the late game so that I can whip factories and corporate execs. If I can secure Kremlin, which in my opinion is the best late-game WW, then the whips are so turbo-charged that I can cold whip the execs even without putting hammers into them. I also whip a lot of settlers late to settle multiple crap tiles such as one-tile islands. Because with sushi/mining, those one-island cities each become 15-pop cities with a ton of TR commerce. I also tend to have 3-4 Golden Ages each game in order to race towards Medicine, Electricity, and then Future Techs if the game lasts that long since the extra health & happy are needed with the city pop explosions. So yes, our play styles differ some which is why I try to keep the food surplus as high as possible and seem to get more out of Windmills than Mines. But the thoughts added to this thread have changed my thinking and I now do use mines occasionally where the extra hammers are very helpful.