Winning GOTM8 by 2640 BC

[Jonathan]

I was very interested to see that Alain won GOTM8 by 2640 BC, and I wondered how he did it, so I looked at his saved game.

He seems to have stayed in Despotism and built no settlers (!), using his original two settlers to found two cities. Then he just built triremes, horsemen, and elephants, and sent them out in all directions to conquer the world.

I've tried to reproduce his results on the GOTM8 map, and I can't -- despite the fact that I'm now familiar with the map and he presumably wasn't.

Although I can get quite good results, wiping out one or two opponents early and getting access to plenty of valuable territory, I can't manage to explore (let alone conquer) anything like as much of the map as he managed to do in the time.

Even to try to explore that widely, I have to divide my forces and attack each opponent with just one unit. Although it is possible to wipe out an opponent with one unit, more often than not the attempt is an embarrassing failure. He seems to have had the considerable good luck to succeed in it consistently.

What's really outrageous is that he somehow found the time to build the Hanging Gardens as well! This verges on the incredible.

Has anyone else tried to reproduce Alain's result?

 

[Smash]

not to mention the fact that restarts were on.On the surface it looks very fishy.

 

[Matrix]

Hmm... I don't like these kind of troubles. Last GOTM I removed Richard's score which gave alain the green star. Richard didn't reply to that. Now alain himself is in danger. I will email him to ask for a clarification.

 

[starlifter]

Hopefully, everyone that does well in a GOTM will be willing to discuss their game with everyone else.... it's not a "requirement" to play GOTMs, but this is after all only a game, and an "informal" learning competition. My own personal benchmarks for early conquest excellence is Cactus Pete and Smash. It is entirely possible for people to do "better" than them in any given game, but significantly better performance at least deserves a discussion from the person that played the game... the idea is that we can all learn from how others play their games and do their strategies.

by Smash:

not to mention the fact that restarts were on.On the surface it looks very fishy.

That is a very good point, LOL. When I see "restarts on", I don't even bother wiping most civs out, preferring to "control" the "devil I know" rather than the one in the dark. The real issue, even if restarts were "off" is one of math, which I won't plow into in this post.

I've tried to reproduce his results on the GOTM8 map, and I can't -- despite the fact that I'm now familiar with the map and he presumably wasn't.

Suffice it to say that even if the world is fully revealed, for every move, Isaac Netwon (the "inventor" of modern math) would be amazed. . BTW, there are other unusual aspects in this game, but I won't comment about most of them here.

However, the game is not behaving as other CTW players' games, and his is by far the best (68 turn!) CTW. No one else is remotely close to that achievement, and while that is not "disqualifying", it is worth noting that not a single barb helped in the conquest... all civs were discovered and subdued by the player, and no barbs even made an appearance in this game.

I also followed most unit's movements, esp. the Trireme that was started in Paris about 3320 BC, launched from Paris no later than 3120 BC and braved the open ocean east of Paris no later than 3000 BC for at least one turn. If the Trireme had sunk (50-50), the conquest would never have occurred. LOL, some triremes really have a nose for making a beeline for unknown civs and not sinking, it seems. Personally, I find my triremes usually sink, so they follow the shoreline, esp. early in the game when they are so valuable and the entire world is unexplored!

BTW, here is Alain's Power Graph, FYI:

Other issues aside, IMHO, Alain's game was not terminated properly. An early conquest game needs to save before the last conquest, like Cactus Pete or Enkidu did. When the last blow is delivered, the normal early conquest Gilloutine appears, and reviews the killed civs, in order, year by year.

Here is Cactus Pete's:
English, 2000 BC
Japanese, 1960 BC
Carthaginians, 1880 BC
Sioux, 1860 BC
Celts, 1800 BC
Mongols, 1800 BC
Babylonians, 1800 BC
(7 Civs)

And here is Enkidu's:
Japaner, 1870 BC
Englander, 1500 BC
Sioux, 1480 BC
Griechen, 1060 BC
Kelten, 1040 BC
Inder, 980 BC
Babylonians, 900 BC
(7 Civs)

When a CTW game is properly terminated (by making the final "kill" in the submitted .SAV), and no civs remain, this is the scoring screen on the next turn when the option to continue the game is chosen (taken from Enkidu's game, for example):

Even if there are no other issues with a given game, the player needs to terminate it in the proper way, esp. if they want it to be considered for an Official award. IMHO, Alain would need to submit or post some prior saves in order to validate this game, since the game is not behaving as other CTW players, is by far the best (68th game turn!), and the score screen does not reflect a normal CTW win.

Maybe Alain can shed some light on the game, but since the the submitted 2640BC .SAV does not reflect a CTW win, and the .SAV immediately prior to the final kill was not submitted, it seems to me Cactus Pete's game is the actual fastest finish.

 

[el_kalkylus]

Looks very suspicius. In a conquest game you should at least have some casualties.

 

[starlifter]

Looks very suspicius. In a conquest game you should at least have some casualties.

Just to make sure there's no misunderstandings, my real issue with the game is not the mathematical absurdity of a 68-turn win, or even some other irregularities which I won't mention, but rather that the game was not properly ended. If the game was indeed properly played and ended, then fine... the player should simply submit more info to Matrix so Matrix can decide.

I think everyone that does well should at least be obligated to terminate the game in a standard way. How would it be if a SS win just saved the game at launch? Or did not save it before landing? Its no big deal unless you do well... and then if there is some sort of mistake or error, give Matrix some more info. Worst case, the submission can be made ineligible for that month's awards, and there's always next month to get it right.

The termination of CTW games is already a well-discussed subject, and I think most CTW players know they too must save before the final blow. If they don't, more info must be provided or the award should go to the next person.

PS, I really would like to see an interium .SAV or two for phenomenal games, and/or a timeline... such games are (theoretically) possible, but it would be nice to see or discuss more about just how they are done. The player in such astounding games really must expect a bit of questioning when the results are not just good, but so much better than the 2nd nearest player (who is an excellent early finish player): only 68 game turns vs. the next nearest (112).

 

[Matrix]

I'm going to delete him. I agree with starlifter totally. And he did not reply to the accusations (but he did reply, asking why the bonus score wasn't taken into account), so probably doesn't have an answer to it.

I got another point of discussion: is it meaning full at all to give a green star when restarts are on? Isn't it just a matter of luck? They will, or will not restart -> you don't, or you do win.

 

[Jonathan]

IMHO, better to make sure restarts are always off. I hate 'em.

It's already tedious having to wipe out every opposing city to win -- and then when some silly bunch of upstarts prolongs the game still further by starting up a new city in a hidden corner of the map, it's almost enough to make me give up and look for something else to do...

Fortunately Civ 3's winning conditions look more sensible so far.

 

[Matrix]

I agree. We'll never have restarts on again.

 

[Chofritz]

I was able to conqueror the world in turn 70 (around 2500 bc) or something, but then I had cheatmode and used reveal entire map. I had 0 causalties my elephants were trampling everything down,

But I suggest removing the green star in this game. It's completly unfair scince the restarts are random, sometimes they die sometimes not... I could have conquerord erlier if I had saved before killing a civ, then if they reapper I could have reloaded, but that is cheating so... However Alains victory can actually be done, with lots of MM. But I agree that he should be removed scince he didn't save b4 killing the last civ. I'm not sure if this is the right save and I don't have time to check it right now, however take a look at it if you want, remember cheat mode is on...

 

[Chofritz]

I'll give it another try later without cheatmode,

 

[Matrix]

In the GOTM 7 the restarts were also on. So the green star should be taken back there as well, if we do this. (Alain won that one too.)

 

[Chofritz]

Ok after a 2nd try, this time without cheatmode, I was able to kill the last civilization in 2540 bc. If I would have wanted to I could have built the hanging gardens scince I had about 800 spare cash. However when reloading the save posted below I found out the game didn't end 100% of the times, sometimes a new civ pops up. So I'll post another save too after the last civ has been killed.

I think the green star should be removed from GOTM 07 too, sorry Alain,

 

[starlifter]

Personally, I don't think having restarts on negates players like Cactus Pete's efforts. It's not like no one that is a CTW player can do it. The fact that one or two screw up their own games is no reason to penalize the efforts of thsoe that "do it right", LOL....

I agree that restarts should be OFF, but just because they are on is no reason to remove the green star award! It just means the players who do very well & contend for the green star must take care to end their game properly, or else the next player in line is awarded the green star.

So keep the green star.... but if you are dead set on removing it, then talk to a braoder base of players.... totally removing an award AFTER a game is done is a pretty major step.

 

[starlifter]

However when reloading the save posted below I found out the game didn't end 100% of the times, sometimes a new civ pops up. So I'll post another save too after the last civ has been killed.

This is a known issue, discussed in prior posts, esp. last month. If the game can end "normally" with the CTW save, then it is done. Alain's game in GOTM 8 does not end. It behave oddly. It may not be his fault, but he should send more data to Matrix if he wants it to count, otherwise, it must be disregarded.... the other CTW players did it right, and their games end right. So it is simple... The best finish that ends properly gets the green star. In GOTM 8, it appears to me the fastest finish that was done properly was Cactus Pete.

If people are confused in future GOTMs, PM or Post to Matrix and ask him about their circumstances BEFORE the final submissions... people that submit games that contend for a green star (fastest finish) have to take responsibility for doing it right. If you are a CTW player, save before the final kill, and you'll know if you really made the kill when the Gillotine appears, plust the next turn, the score will say "Scoring Compete".

As far as Alan's (or Richard's or anyone else's) amazing games, it would be in good form just to post and talk about the games. I realize that improbable does not equal impossible, but a main point of GOTMs is to discuss the game in the forum. I think it is a "responsibility" of players that do well to discuss their game, strategy, etc. with everyone, so everyone else can learn and have the possibility to compete in future GOTMs. So personally, I view it in bad form to simply submit a game that finishes twice as fast as the next best player (who is a very good CTW player himself), and say nothing.

 

[damunzy]

I think it is more important that the GotM scoring doesn't take into account beating the game in a fast time.

 

[Matrix]

What do you mean PaleHorse76?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Matrix,

I worked hard at winning GOTM8 by early conquest knowing restarts were on and thinking that I could deal with them after seeing how they worked while playing GOTM7 (for score). A post hoc decision to negate green stars just because restarts were on would waste my month's effort. Please think about it carefully.

I'm not sure that at the end of my game a new civ will pop up half the time. I think that I took so many civs out that the game finally eliminated that option.

Starlifter,

I agree that in an ideal world Fanatics, especially those doing well, would post frequently about their playing strategies. Unfortunately, at least in my case, that is often not practical -- usually all the free time that I have is taken up just playing the game. I would suggest that more frequent saves, which take little time, might be a partial answer.

 

[Chofritz]

Well, afterall I think Cactus Pete is right, keep the green star but not Alain (as long as he doesn't speak out in the forum or send in more saves)

BTW Cactus Pete nice game,

 

[starlifter]

by Cactus Pete:

I agree that in an ideal world Fanatics, especially those doing well, would post frequently about their playing strategies. Unfortunately, at least in my case, that is often not practical -- usually all the free time that I have is taken up just playing the game. I would suggest that more frequent saves, which take little time, might be a partial answer.

It is my own opinion that the more amazing a given game is, the more the need for comment. Yours was one of excellent work, but witin the close results of several other excellent game. It was not almost twice as fast a the next player, and it raises no unusual questions, so IMHO there is less need to comment. Also, it was not in contention for a medal (I think it is nice for medal contenders to make a post or two also). And finally, it is not an absolute requirement for everyone to post . But the more people that do post, the better and more interesting the GOTM becomes