Wish List: Deposing a Leader

[Flexmaster]

It would be nice if you could choose a new leader for a Civ that has capitulated. I know if I took over another Civ and installed a new government and leader I would choose someone with a favorable attitude towards my government instead of letting the same shmuck throw out insults after I had just conquered his lands.

For example; Bismark decides he wants to capitulate. I throw him out of office and choose another leader from the pool of leaders the German civ has available. So if Bismark was warlike then I would choose another German leader that concentrates on science or something other than war.

Comments?

 

[AySteve]

Well, I dont really see how this would work since they have already said that there will be only one leader per civ. But ignoring that for the moment....

On the one hand, yes it is kind of annoying in civ4 that all those 'you declared war on us' penalties make it nearly impossible to get on good terms with your vassal, and I think there should be some way to try and improve relations so that they can be useful to you. However, if all those negative feelings just went away after conquering them then theres nothing really to stop me declaring war taking a few cities, before sueing for peace - rinse and repeat. In civ4 at least, the game seems to strongly favour a play style of aggressive land capture, and removing one of the few penalties of this would only make the game more military oriented.

Clearly this is all based on the current civ4 system. Whether the other 3rd party AIs in civ5 will react more strongly to you attacking their friends, and this proves a strong deterent against war, remains to be seen.

 

[CTH]

AySteve, if you removed the penalties for vassals you would still not be able to attack them as they are your vassals.

 

[Flexmaster]

However, if all those negative feelings just went away after conquering them then theres nothing really to stop me declaring war taking a few cities, before sueing for peace - rinse and repeat.

Well I was thinking that things may get interesting if you can depose a leader and install a new one. Maybe the new one could be friendly towards you for a few turns before things go back to the way they were before but atleast you'd be dealing with a new Leader that may or may not be better than the last and that in itself may make take some of the dullness out of dealing with the same Leader after he's been conquered.

 

[AySteve]

AySteve, if you removed the penalties for vassals you would still not be able to attack them as they are your vassals.

I wasnt suggesting that you should be able to attack your vassals. What I meant was that often I would much rather totally eliminate a civ than taking them as a vassal. The reason is that if I have declared war on them a couple of times you just end up with a vassal that will forever have you as their 'worst enemy'. This makes it very difficult to trade with them or get them to do what you want eg. they wont change their state religion, thereby messing up your realtions with a 3rd AI.

 

[Disgustipated]

It's a cool idea, but difficult to implement because of the one leader per civ problem.

I'd love to depose an agressive leader and have a more peaceful one take their place.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

its a great idea for future mods &/or expansions though. It also presents interesting choices-the new leader is in many regards a "blank slate" towards you in diplomatic terms (indeed, as you put them in power, they might have a bonus towards you ), but their unique ability might prove a thorn in your side at a later stage of the game .

Aussie.

 

[Suho1004]

The reason is that if I have declared war on them a couple of times you just end up with a vassal that will forever have you as their 'worst enemy'.

Really? You mean they automatically become your vassal and you have no choice in the matter? That would definitely suck. It's never happened to me, though.

 

[AySteve]

Really? You mean they automatically become your vassal and you have no choice in the matter? That would definitely suck. It's never happened to me, though.

I dont think I have explained myself very well here

Civs never automatically become your vassals. What I meant was it seems that the 2 best options in war are either
1) declare war once and decisively defeat them, taking them as a vassal,
2) or eliminate them entirely, in which case it doesnt matter how many times you declare.

The problem is that if you sue for peace after your first attacks and end up declaring war multiple times you end up with a worst enemy, who makes a pretty lousy vassal if you choose to go that route, because of all those stacked 'you declared war on us' demerits.

 

[Ddude97]

I sympathize. Although in my experience you had to take/raze the majority of the country to get it to capitulate.

 

[AySteve]

Yep, and razing their useless cities is another excellent way to end up with a very annoyed vassal

 

[Ataxerxes]

I sympathize. Although in my experience you had to take/raze the majority of the country to get it to capitulate.

Depends on the leader. Monty or Shaka will fight to the last man, it's true. Also, there's a chain capitulation. As you take vassals, your power goes up and they vassalize faster. Sometimes the first one takes the majority of the country, the third one surrenders as soon as they talk to you with 8 cities left.

I found Cathy will vassalize rather quickly and makes a good vassal. She isn't so good if she isn't a vassal.

 

[Ddude97]

That's true. One time had six vassals capitulate/vassalize themselves in same turn (I contacted them)

 

[Popvox]

I think this sounds like a good feature, but this may already be adressed in the "puppet states" feature that will be coming in in CIV5. ALso perhaps the civ with the new leader has a chance of going into some sort of uprising and reinstalling the old leader, this would mean that sometimes it would work in your favour to keep you previous arch-nemesis in power.

 

[Ddude97]

I think this sounds like a good feature, but this may already be adressed in the "puppet states" feature that will be coming in in CIV5.

How so?

offtopic: Also at your sig, don't you start out as chieftan?

 

[Popvox]

Well, historically most puppet states have usually had a new leader installed who is friendly to the ideology of the conquering state. Generally, this leader was not the existing defeated leader, thus the victorious power deposed the old leader and installed a new one, which is what we're talking about here.

About the chieftan thing, yes you do start as Chieftan (no idea why) but its just a bad quality joke really, I wanted to put something witty or some sort of political statement, but I couldn't think of anything at the time and can't be bothered doing the political compass again.

 

[TheDS]

On the one hand, yes it is kind of annoying in civ4 that all those 'you declared war on us' penalties make it nearly impossible to get on good terms with your vassal, and I think there should be some way to try and improve relations so that they can be useful to you.

That's already possible. It's called being a good neighbor/master. You set up trade relations, you give them reasonable resources so they're productive, you dump (almost) all your technology on them, you defend them, and you'll get bonuses. Eventually some of the negatives go away too.

BUT, it's not an invitation to walk all over someone. If you DoWed them multiple times, razed a bunch of cities, and so forth, yeah, they're gonna stay mad at you and they should. You want them to like you, then while you're fighting the war think about after the war and don't be so mean. Killing units doesn't hurt, killing cities and dropping nukes does.

And if you're not strong enough or nice enough to hold on, then they should remember they way you abused them.