With cavalry being pushed back will cossacks get beefed???

[futurehermit]

Ok, cossacks were too powerful in vanilla, I think most people can agree. The nerf they got for warlords was perhaps too much, but I think they are still ok. They're a cav unit, which is already strong, that does well against a couple units that are respectable vs. them (elephants and knights) leaving only 1 half-decent counter (pikemen), which the AI doesn't build enough of anyways

But in BtS with cossacks being pushed back, I'm not sure what the heck good a bonus vs. mounted units is going to do? At the time of rifling how many different kinds of mounted units are you going to be seeing? Only other cavalry. "Meh" to that I say..."meh".

With cavalry being pushed back along the tech tree I figure that cossacks could get their old stats back. That's one option. But are they going to be improved at all?

Otherwise they would be a very mediocre uu imo.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

yeah, plus forbidden info seems like Russia's UB will be nerfed (Labs pushed back on the Tech Tree)

So hopefully the Cossacks will be boosted somehow. (although probably not as they were originally)

The other option is that the Cossack becomes a UU currasier

 

[Virulent]

The other option is that the Cossack becomes a UU currasier

This is what I want to see.

Speaking of Currasiers I'm wondering what their strength is going to be and if Calvary is getting a boost because of them.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Cossacks were not over-nerfed, even with a 3 point strength reduction, the +50% against cavalry and the easy to bang a +25% against rifleman make them still a highly difficult unit to beat in that era. Russia remain banned in renaissance games on the C4P Ladder for instance.

It'll be interesting to see if the Cossack is put in with the Currasiers...if they are in the age of riflemen, I hope they don't go too far and give them a full return to vanilla strength. Man, what were they thinking there...hell, a tester still claimed they weren't overpowered at strength 18 pfft.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Cossacks were not over-nerfed, even with a 3 point strength reduction, the +50% against cavalry and the easy to bang a +25% against rifleman make them still a highly difficult unit to beat in that era. Russia remain banned in renaissance games on the C4P Ladder for instance.

They Don't have a +25% v. Riflemen (that would make them worthwhile)

 

[ds61514]

They Don't have a +25% v. Riflemen (that would make them worthwhile)

They get pinch. Riflemen don't get anti-cav promotions.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They get pinch. Riflemen don't get anti-cav promotions.

Not Normally, but they can. If they were at 16 str and +50% v mounted I'd consider that reasonable.

 

[largedarryl]

...hell, a tester still claimed they weren't overpowered at strength 18 pfft.

That is way to funny, how could that not be seen. The vanilla cossacks would last until tanks.

I would like to see the cossacks replace the curaisser as well, and probably keep the same stats as they have now.

IMHO, the current russian UB is useless anyways, it falls way to late in the game to make a difference. Maybe more important on modern starts, but I've never played a game like that so I can't comment on games like that.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That is way to funny, how could that not be seen. The vanilla cossacks would last until tanks.

I would like to see the cossacks replace the curaisser as well, and probably keep the same stats as they have now.

IMHO, the current russian UB is useless anyways, it falls way to late in the game to make a difference. Maybe more important on modern starts, but I've never played a game like that so I can't comment on games like that.

Actually, the advanced start option may make advanced Era starts more common.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

They are already 50% better than the equivalent unit (cavalry) that they replace. Not many UU can boast this. Original Redcoats and Cossacks were just a mistake, which firaxis admitted and corrected. They are not going to reinstate a mistake.

 

[0R4NG3]

Maybe you should've made a poll for this question.
I personally hope they will beef cossacks or at least cavalry up by 1-2 points, cause at the moment they aren't really worth it: for all their bonuses they are too expensive and can not be drafted.
It is much easier to create a gren/rifle/cannon army, which will be just as good as an army of cossacks/cannons.

P.S.: Is Russia really so powerful that it should be continually nerfed? First cossacks (justified), then Cathy, and now UB (rumored) and cossacks again

 

[futurehermit]

My original point still holds imho: The only "advantage" cossacks hold over cavalry is a bonus vs. mounted units. If cossacks get pushed back to rifling their "advantage" is essentially void making them essentially regular cavalry = no uu.

The reason cossacks were originally so overpowered is that you could beeline them so early. But if they came with rifling other civs would have fortified rifles which DO beat cossacks (even original ones) cost-effectively imho. Not to mention that there are now protective civilizations in the game, which weren't in for vanilla. Chances are you're going to be up against aggressive or protective rifles most of the time meaning the original cossacks wouldn't be op imo.

But ANYWAYS, , my point isn't to try and get them to bring back the original unit stats, but rather to say that they will effectively be a useless UU unless they get SOMETHING if they are pushed back to rifling.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

They Don't have a +25% v. Riflemen (that would make them worthwhile)

Dude, I said they easily can get that.

Barracks + stables (and who doesn't by that stage) = drill + anti-gunpowder promo and makes rifleman have a less than great % on attack vs cavalry from Civ4 Warlords.

See, if you just "got it" we could have saved much text.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

But if they came with rifling other civs would have fortified rifles which DO beat cossacks (even original ones) cost-effectively imho.

Then you're simply wrong in all but high culture cities.

The cossack from the vanilla couldn't be effectively attacked by riflemen and could kill on attack riflemen with a decent cost to loss ratio if the culture defense bonus was low and even if not as they withdraw often enough.

As stated before with promos likely to be employed the rifleman is pretty pants at attacking cavalry unless that civ is getting 3 promos on their rifles.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Dude, I said they easily can get that.

Barracks + stables (and who doesn't by that stage) = drill + anti-gunpowder promo and makes rifleman have a less than great % on attack vs cavalry from Civ4 Warlords.

See, if you just "got it" we could have saved much text.

sorry, you said "easy to bang" ? which didn't make much sense, wanted to make sure it was clarified.

also even though one is easier than the other, it doesn't make it automatic. (essentially it means you are forced to waste that second promotion just playing catchup to the Rifleman)

And you Definitely can't hit a Rifleman in a City, because the most common promotion for Riflemen is City Garrison. (In the field, the Pinch promotion could come in handy and make Cavalry a player)

With the new anti-Cannon bonus for Cavalry, they might have a good use though, although still in the field for diminishing SODs.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

That is way to funny, how could that not be seen. The vanilla cossacks would last until tanks.

I would like to see the cossacks replace the curaisser as well, and probably keep the same stats as they have now.

IMHO, the current russian UB is useless anyways, it falls way to late in the game to make a difference. Maybe more important on modern starts, but I've never played a game like that so I can't comment on games like that.

The Russian UB is super for Renaissance and Industrial OCC challenge games which are or certainly have been very popular on the C4P Ladder.

 

[0R4NG3]

The Russian UB is super for Renaissance and Industrial OCC challenge games which are or certainly have been very popular on the C4P Ladder.

I don't think we should look at it from the point of view of any kind of scenario or challenge, most people just play normal games.

 

[Lexad]

Regular cavalry could also get a pinch upgrade the same way as cossack, and still not banned - clearly that's not the reason. The reason is everybody is just churning brainlsessly cav, and cossack block this skillful gamestyle.

 

[kniteowl]

Assuming Cossacks are still underpowered after being pushed back to Rifling.

Then I'd remove the 50% mounted bonus and return them back to 18 Str, they be similar to Cataphracts except they'd be in the Renaissance/Industrial age

15 compared to 18 is only a 20% increase in strength when you compare 10 to 12, it's similar to Cataphracts UU bonus.

 

[TheLastOne36]

you know if they added poland with it's winged Hussars, there wouldn't be a problem with the cossacks. everyone would be complaining how strong the winged hussars are! (even though it's a knight, it could defeat a cossack any day of the week)

Of course polands not in the game, so we have to complain about the cossacks instead.