Without Hitler, would the Germans have still lost WW2?

[RedRalph]

Why is it that in almost every alt-history scenario people post the USSR is easily defeated and ends up with no European territory? Do people assume every single thing that went right for the red army was pure luck?

 

[Agent327]

@red_elk: Are you commenting on every sentence I write now? (Without reference, i.e. out of context?) Get serious or drop it.

 

[Dachs]

Why is it that in almost every alt-history scenario people post the USSR is easily defeated and ends up with no European territory? Do people assume every single thing that went right for the red army was pure luck?

I suppose they usually do. It's a shame, really...the Sovs really did do a fantastic job in some areas. Wouldn't have been all that easy for the Wehrmacht to march to the Urals. I guess mostly the USSR is defeated suchly because there really are only two alternatives when talking about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union...either one of them loses big and gets satellited, or the other does. So for the sake of the 'alternate' part of althistory, it's usually posited that the USSR gets beat up really bad. Elseways Germany wouldn't be much of a threat, and the Red Menace is "overdone".

 

[red_elk]

Those few, who voluntarily joined Red Army in 1940-1941, are not looked well upon. I believe they can effectively be considered traitors.

That's the main problem. Traitors for you are the heroes for us and vice versa.

Killing somebody solely because of his ethnicity is totally wrong. No exceptions here.
...
Of course, incidents such as Nowogrodek one, mentioned in the report, can't be excused. But I think such occurrences were exceptional and no collective blame can be assigned.

At least you are admitting this. It's hard to expect more from Estonian.
Report indeed contain some interesting information. Despite it sometimes gives tendentional interpretation of events, it is a small step toward.

 

[red_elk]

To summarize discussion about Stalin's repressions.
Here is all the information I've given here, in brief:

1. Total number of victims for the entire period 1934-1953 was about 2-3 millions. This number includes executed people, people who died in GULAG, prisons and exile places, peasants died in resettlement, and other categories. From this number, about 800,000 of people were executed for political reasons [1].
2. Annual totals for detained population was 2-3 millions (for pre-war years around 3 millions).
Population of GULAG camps varied in range 500,000 - 1,700,000.
Number of political prisoners in GULAG varied in range 100,000 - 500,000. [1]
To give an idea on how large this number is, currently US prisons population is about 2,300,000 people. [2][3]
3. At least part of numbers given by Solzhenitsyn in his books are exaggerated by several times. Example - estimation of annual number of inmates as 12-15 millions [4].

[1] "Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence" J. ARCH GETTY, GABOR T. RITTERSPORN, and VIKTOR N. ZEMSKOV
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html
[2] "US Rates of Incarceration: A Global Perspective." Christopher Hartney.
http://www.nccd-crc.org/nccd/pubs/20...arceration.pdf
[3] "Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’" New York Times, By Adam Liptak. Published: April 23, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html
[4] "The First Circle", A. Solzhenitsyn, 1968
http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLZHENICYN/vkp2.txt (Russian)

I'm not discussing here the moral aspect of the terror. Of course, unjust execution of people cannot be tolerated no matter the scale of repressions. But knowing real statistics is necessary.

Edit: Anybody who wants to further discuss this please post in a new thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296523
Sorry for spoiling this one.

 

[Sharwood]

"It's hard to expect more from an Estonian." Just slightly racist there.

EDIT: Started to wish I'd quoted it, since you've since editted it to remove the obvious racism.

 

[red_elk]

As hard as expect from Russian putting ashes on head in such kind of discussion.

 

[Sharwood]

As hard as expect from Russian putting ashes on head in such kind of discussion.

What the hell doesn that mean? Who told you to "put ashes" on your head?

 

[Yeekim]

As hard as expect from Russian putting ashes on head in such kind of discussion.

No, you don't have to start putting ashes on your head, because you can't be be blamed for actions of Soviet leaders 60 years ago.
Just don't go along with attempts to whitewash them or diminish their criminal actions. Given that Russian people undoubtedly suffered most under communist terror, I wonder whether that is some effect similar to Stockholm syndrome that causes these attempts of denial. (Or some kind of "Raz byot, tak lyubit" philosophy?) USSR forced us all to accept their revisions of history for 45 years. We do not want these lies immortalized.

And please, don't go along with "revival of nazism in Baltics!" frenzy, when your media tries to whip that up. I remember a part of television interview with a Russian journalist or TV-reporter living in Estonia, who cooperated with some major Russian network. He said that your channels have already themselves started to believe the negative image they've created, and illustrated this with following example:
After April 2007, his Russian associates asked him to send some footage of Estonians, marching with swastikas and SS-uniforms.
He said: "But such things do not happen here, it is forbidden to display any such symbols!"
He said they did not believe him.

This had not exactly improved attitude towards Russia in Estonia as well. Ten years ago such tensions were much smaller...

EDIT: By saying "you", I do not mean you specifically. This rather applies to Russian public in general. And finally I am sorry if I have been unnecessarily rude somewhere during this discussion. In spite of my desire to discuss things in civilized manner, my emotions may have gotten the best of me sometimes.

 

[RedRalph]

Those few, who voluntarily joined Red Army in 1940-1941, are not looked well upon. I believe they can effectively be considered traitors. Some were simply naive communist idealists. Most were forcefully conscripted.

youre a disgrace... you apologise for Estonians who served in the SS and condemn thos ewho served in the Red Army... disgusting

 

[RedRalph]

I suppose they usually do. It's a shame, really...the Sovs really did do a fantastic job in some areas. Wouldn't have been all that easy for the Wehrmacht to march to the Urals. I guess mostly the USSR is defeated suchly because there really are only two alternatives when talking about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union...either one of them loses big and gets satellited, or the other does. So for the sake of the 'alternate' part of althistory, it's usually posited that the USSR gets beat up really bad. Elseways Germany wouldn't be much of a threat, and the Red Menace is "overdone".

I dont mind people considering what would have ahppened if the reds collapsed, its just in practically every scenario people seem to think if just one little thing had been different the Nazis would have beat them, completely ignores the heroic sacrifices of the red army, and combination of inspired and dreadful leadership from STAVKA... you never see alt scenarions where the US completely bottled D-Day or where the Brits made peace in 1940, theres always an assumption the USSR only won through luck...

what about a scenario wher eD-Day goes wrong and the reds end up looking over the channel to Dover?

 

[Yeekim]

youre a disgrace... you apologise for Estonians who served in the SS and condemn thos ewho served in the Red Army... disgusting

This opinion is shared by overwhelming majority of Estonian public, for reasons that I have explained at length in this and other threads. I am trying not to explain with malice what I could be explained with ignorance, therefore if you are interested in understanding "why", I can provide an insightful article or two on that topic. If you are interested in simply bashing Estonians for having "wrong" ideas about their own history...well, I won't bother.
So which one is it?

 

[RedRalph]

This opinion is shared by overwhelming majority of Estonian public, for reasons that I have explained at length in this and other threads. I am trying not to explain with malice what I could be explained with ignorance, therefore if you are interested in understanding "why", I can provide an insightful article or two on that topic. If you are interested in simply bashing Estonians for having "wrong" ideas about their own history...well, I won't bother.
So which one is it?

OK, go ahead, show me the article

 

[Yeekim]

http://www.hot.ee/evlliit/inglis_1.html
"Why Did Estonian Fight Together With the Germans?" over there is good for starters. Commit fifteen minutes of your time to read this and its footnotes.

Mind you, this may not be neutral in tone. It is not supposed to be - it is, after all, sort of apology on the matter. However, all facts presented therein are, as far as I know, perfectly true - notwithstanding the claim that NO crimes can be associated with 20th Waffen-SS battalion - here I advise to consult report of Max Jakobson commission I referred red_elk to previously in this thread: they have identified few cases. Might be this article predates the report.

Nevertheless, views presented therein are quite universally accepted in Estonia today.

 

[red_elk]

What the hell doesn that mean? Who told you to "put ashes" on your head?

I'm not expecting in this discussion any apologies neither from Estonians nor from Russians. So, my words above have nothing to do with racism. Is my English so bad that you can't understand me?

No, you don't have to start putting ashes on your head, because you can't be be blamed for actions of Soviet leaders 60 years ago.
Just don't go along with attempts to whitewash them or diminish their criminal actions. Given that Russian people undoubtedly suffered most under communist terror, I wonder whether that is some effect similar to Stockholm syndrome that causes these attempts of denial. (Or some kind of "Raz byot, tak lyubit" philosophy?) USSR forced us all to accept their revisions of history for 45 years. We do not want these lies immortalized.

And please, don't go along with "revival of nazism in Baltics!" frenzy, when your media tries to whip that up. I remember a part of television interview with a Russian journalist or TV-reporter living in Estonia, who cooperated with some major Russian network. He said that your channels have already themselves started to believe the negative image they've created, and illustrated this with following example:
After April 2007, his Russian associates asked him to send some footage of Estonians, marching with swastikas and SS-uniforms.
He said: "But such things do not happen here, it is forbidden to display any such symbols!"
He said they did not believe him.

This had not exactly improved attitude towards Russia in Estonia as well. Ten years ago such tensions were much smaller...

EDIT: By saying "you", I do not mean you specifically. This rather applies to Russian public in general. And finally I am sorry if I have been unnecessarily rude somewhere during this discussion. In spite of my desire to discuss things in civilized manner, my emotions may have gotten the best of me sometimes.

I almost never watch official media, moreover I'm not in Russia at the moment. Also, I don't think Estonian official media are neutral here.
As for my position - considering Waffen SS Legion veterans as freedom fighters and Soviet Army veterans as traitors will never be accepted in Russia. No matter what official media will say.

 

[plarq]

I'm not expecting in this discussion any apologies neither from Estonians nor from Russians. So, my words above have nothing to do with racism. Is my English so bad that you can't understand me?



I almost never watch official media, moreover I'm not in Russia at the moment. Also, I don't think Estonian official media are neutral here.
As for my position - considering Waffen SS Legion veterans as freedom fighters and Soviet Army veterans as traitors will never be accepted in Russia. No matter what official media will say.

Never watch official media doesn't mean that you have moral highground against anyone. Say those nationalists declare, "We hate the foreign media depicting us as evils, we don't watch official media so we're not brainwashed"