On Emperor getting ancient age wonders became totally impossible for me. The only one I managed in this recent game was SoZ and that only due to the fact I monopolized Ivory. Now in middle ages the chances somewhat improved. I lagged only few techs behind the tech leader (Iros) and concentrated on the upper branch to total neglect of all lower branch techs in attempt to get some wonders. I tried for copernicus and adam smith to accelerate my research, used great library and sisitine as prebuild to copers, unfortunately sistine got completed two turns before astronomy but astronomy gave an SGL to get copers and now prebuilding adam smith with palace. Is this generally a viable strategy for Emperor?
wonder building on Emperor
- Thread starter shl7070
- Start date
They pay 80 per 100 shields for things. You have to make up for that. In the AA this can often be done, with better improvement of the town. Prepare the wonder town, by getting up to max size quickly. Add workers, after they mine or irrigate the tiles that will be worked.
Get a temple in first to be able to have fewer specialist or lower slider. Any pre building you can get will help, but in the AA that tends to be few turns.
After AA, you are likely to not be able to have a better city, at least not by much. You will need to rely on a better pre.
Do not try to beat them to every wonder, Copes and Smith is going to hurt elsewhere. Once in a while you can get out in front enough to do what you want. Smith's is not going to help you, if you do not have very many banks. Maybe it is better to just capture it later.
Get a temple in first to be able to have fewer specialist or lower slider. Any pre building you can get will help, but in the AA that tends to be few turns.
After AA, you are likely to not be able to have a better city, at least not by much. You will need to rely on a better pre.
Do not try to beat them to every wonder, Copes and Smith is going to hurt elsewhere. Once in a while you can get out in front enough to do what you want. Smith's is not going to help you, if you do not have very many banks. Maybe it is better to just capture it later.
I had a good prebuild- the palace with a 600 shields for 28 cities. And from some reasons I managed to out-research in the middle ages after being significantly behind earlier.
Smith saved about 50 gpt after it was completed, all gpt from smith went to raise science slider and it allowed getting newtons in the same city as copers giving 200 beakers in the city. I don't know how the AI enabled itself to be out-researched there but now they are about to see my tanks finishing their demise.
Seeing an SGL on emperor in a main-line tech like astronomy was a good surprise.
Of course i had to forgo significant wonders like sun-tzu and leonardo to reach the target: out-researching them.
In ancient I'm too busy warring and behind in tech so I can't build anything except swords and barracks.
Smith saved about 50 gpt after it was completed, all gpt from smith went to raise science slider and it allowed getting newtons in the same city as copers giving 200 beakers in the city. I don't know how the AI enabled itself to be out-researched there but now they are about to see my tanks finishing their demise.
Seeing an SGL on emperor in a main-line tech like astronomy was a good surprise.
Of course i had to forgo significant wonders like sun-tzu and leonardo to reach the target: out-researching them.
In ancient I'm too busy warring and behind in tech so I can't build anything except swords and barracks.
Well to save fifty gold on banks you have to build 1) smith 2) lots of banks 3) research an optional tech. All those shields would have made a nasty thumping machine. Not researching Econ gets me to Steam sooner.
I like to out research them by having lots of towns and lots of scientist and oh yeah killing them. can't out research me, if I have 100 towns and they have 19 or none.
I like to out research them by having lots of towns and lots of scientist and oh yeah killing them. can't out research me, if I have 100 towns and they have 19 or none.
creamcheese
Spreading since 1990
If you want some ancient age wonders on emperor, you will have to conquer them or sacrifice a lot of early expansion, the AI grow and builds things 20% faster than you, and the advantage they gain is measurable. You can use your capital for corruption free building, and even get the pyramids or colossus early, but you will lose out on many cities you could have had, so the benefits are really not worth the cost most of the time. Unless going for 20k, you should conquer the AA wonders you want. SoZ is an exception b/c of the resource req and that fact that you want to build it yourself (it doesn't work if you capture it IIRC).
If you keep up in techs you should (with diligent prebuilds) get a large share of the middle age wonders, most of which are more useful since they last all game long. In the Ind age if you haven't come close to winning already you should be able to snag most if not all of the wonders, same for modern age.
If you keep up in techs you should (with diligent prebuilds) get a large share of the middle age wonders, most of which are more useful since they last all game long. In the Ind age if you haven't come close to winning already you should be able to snag most if not all of the wonders, same for modern age.
The Statue of Zeus works just fine if you capture it, provided you have ivory. No ivory, no ancient cavalry, whether or not you build it yourself. (You need ivory to start building it, but if you lose ivory you can continue building it, you just don't get the units.)
creamcheese
Spreading since 1990
dalgo
Emperor
I built 3 AA wonders in my current game on Emperor. Originally I only planned to build the Great Lighthouse because it is an archipelago map, and I had to work hard for that. However I found ivory early in the game so built Zeus and the other civs seemed to ignore Literature for some reason so I had a clear shot at the Great Library.
From then on I could build pretty much anything I wanted with 6 MA wonders.
From then on I could build pretty much anything I wanted with 6 MA wonders.
Skullsplitter
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
- Messages
- 108
Game I finished last night, no AA wonders, 65 towns before running out of space, ALL other wonders, through and including Cure for Cancer, excluding Manhattan, because I had no uranium. It was the Ethical Emperor ruleset, so there wasn't much point in building military as usual, just enough for defense.
I'm not a big fan of wonders in general, though. Too many shields. The opportunity cost is just too high. For what it costs to build the Pyramids, I can field enough swords and/or horses to take it when its completed, then after a while, send them on to take Lighthouse, or anything else that sounds interesting.
Copes & Newton gives you 200 beakers? Wow. Just wow. In my last game, I had Copes, Newtons & SETI in the same town and capped out at 126, only 3 corruption. Must have been a great location. Mostly Grassland and Bonus Grassland, I'm guessing, mined until you pop limited, then changed all to irrigation?
I'm not a big fan of wonders in general, though. Too many shields. The opportunity cost is just too high. For what it costs to build the Pyramids, I can field enough swords and/or horses to take it when its completed, then after a while, send them on to take Lighthouse, or anything else that sounds interesting.
Copes & Newton gives you 200 beakers? Wow. Just wow. In my last game, I had Copes, Newtons & SETI in the same town and capped out at 126, only 3 corruption. Must have been a great location. Mostly Grassland and Bonus Grassland, I'm guessing, mined until you pop limited, then changed all to irrigation?
200 bpt isn't much for a science city. My current 20K game has 108 bpt at 20% science. (I'm into the modern age, but I'm currently researching sanitation, so I can build battlefield medicine.) Switching to 100% science gives 549 bpt. It is a pretty good city for science, but not great - a river, one tobacco, no other bonus tiles except bonus grassland, no coastal tiles. It is a good 20K city, though, as it hit 102 spt when I finished the coal plant and railing.
My second best beaker output in this game is at 82 bpt at 100% science, and it isn't even working the optimal tiles for beaker output. Of course, it has no wonders, just library, university, and research lab.
If you have a city with three science wonders that caps at 126 bpt, you are doing something strange.
My second best beaker output in this game is at 82 bpt at 100% science, and it isn't even working the optimal tiles for beaker output. Of course, it has no wonders, just library, university, and research lab.
If you have a city with three science wonders that caps at 126 bpt, you are doing something strange.
I build those cities on rivers and near the coast. Coast and river squares give 3 commerce while regular squares give 2. Science here was on 60%, still I never had more then 350bpt in any game.
The problem with science wonders (colossus,copers,newtons,ToE,SETI) is that capturing them usually gives nothing (the cities are corrupted) while capturing others like pyramids is more effective then building them indeed.
The problem with science wonders (colossus,copers,newtons,ToE,SETI) is that capturing them usually gives nothing (the cities are corrupted) while capturing others like pyramids is more effective then building them indeed.
Skullsplitter
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
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That's a game ago. I only have one save, just as I'm coming up on Synthetic Fiber. Only 4 river tiles, but rivers are only +1g anyway, aren't they? After rail, 3 instead of 2? About evenly split between grass and mountains with a couple bonus gold. Everything railroaded. 6 luxuries. 12 tiles being worked. Have everything including Research Lab. All three wonders were rushed by leaders, if that makes any difference. Its showing 137bpt @ 100%. I suppose if the base were 50% higher, if all were river tiles...
Would that really make 400bpt difference? 3 wonders is 300%, lib, uni & lab is 150%, so only 450% bonus. That would mean those 12 tiles would have to be earning like 6 more each, wouldn't it? That would be 72 more base, for a total of 396 more beakers. How in heaven's name do you average 8 gold per tile as a base?
20k is something special, though, isn't it? Don't you reroll until you get what you want? I play the first thing the map generator throws at me, and do as best as I can with it. That was the best commercial opportunity around my capital and the best spot I could find for a forbidden palace.
I don't generally build wonders except Sufferage, maybe Evolution, Tzu, and if I don't have anything better to do, maybe Leonardo, but maybe if I bothered with the science wonders a little I'd learn how to use them better.
Would that really make 400bpt difference? 3 wonders is 300%, lib, uni & lab is 150%, so only 450% bonus. That would mean those 12 tiles would have to be earning like 6 more each, wouldn't it? That would be 72 more base, for a total of 396 more beakers. How in heaven's name do you average 8 gold per tile as a base?
20k is something special, though, isn't it? Don't you reroll until you get what you want? I play the first thing the map generator throws at me, and do as best as I can with it. That was the best commercial opportunity around my capital and the best spot I could find for a forbidden palace.
I don't generally build wonders except Sufferage, maybe Evolution, Tzu, and if I don't have anything better to do, maybe Leonardo, but maybe if I bothered with the science wonders a little I'd learn how to use them better.
Many people use the program MapFinder to help them find good maps, if you want to find a strong start for a 20k game. I usually do that myself, although you can often win a 20k on many levels just taking the first map that gets thrown at you. I know I've won OCC 20k games on Monarch without even having freshwater for my 20k site. I think it could done on Emperor also.
Also, you don't have to play a 20k game as "build and build, and build." You could play "kill 'em and build 'em". In other words, you first go hunt the AI, pulverize them so they can't do all that much, and then put in your wonders and other culture. The number of years per turn decreases or stays the same as time goes on, so you don't necessarily need a lot of culture early to win. Also, you can try and build a little early, and go out later just enough to make sure that the AI doesn't finish the spaceship or build the U. N. or otherwise trigger a victory condition before you reach 20k.
Skullsplitter
Warlord
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Oh, wait, you said tobacco. Is the science for C3C calculated differently?
[EDIT]
If I understand multiplier buildings correctly, 549 with lib, uni and lab would require a base of 220g. 3 come from the town center. The 12 tiles would have to be pulling in like 18g each to get to 216.
OK, maybe you get +1 for commercial trait, +1 for repub/demo, but my understanding of multipliers must be terribly wrong.
[/EDIT]
[EDIT2]
OK, I see your 549 town had the three wonders, but still, that means you need a base of 99 or so, 3 from the TC, requiring 8g in each of the 12 tiles.
Either there are some improvements I should be building, or my understanding of multipliers is whacked.
[/EDIT2]
[EDIT]
If I understand multiplier buildings correctly, 549 with lib, uni and lab would require a base of 220g. 3 come from the town center. The 12 tiles would have to be pulling in like 18g each to get to 216.
OK, maybe you get +1 for commercial trait, +1 for repub/demo, but my understanding of multipliers must be terribly wrong.
[/EDIT]
[EDIT2]
OK, I see your 549 town had the three wonders, but still, that means you need a base of 99 or so, 3 from the TC, requiring 8g in each of the 12 tiles.
Either there are some improvements I should be building, or my understanding of multipliers is whacked.
[/EDIT2]
creamcheese
Spreading since 1990
You are forgetting the cities with shakes can grow beyond size 12, using all 20 tiles in the radius. With lib,uni,lab + copernicus,seti,newton's = +450%, a city with colossus gets +1 per tile before flight, but can't have that and lab+seti, so i'll calc without colossus.
20tiles x 2 per tile with roads and Republic= 40
40 + 6tiles river (could be bigger, just a good middle number) = 48
4 of 20 tiles water; +4 = 52
Golden Age; +20= 72
72x4.5= 324 gpt
I don't know how CKS has 500+ either, maybe my calculations are screwy. I even included golden age income. Maybe % are bonuses are more powerful than adding?
20tiles x 2 per tile with roads and Republic= 40
40 + 6tiles river (could be bigger, just a good middle number) = 48
4 of 20 tiles water; +4 = 52
Golden Age; +20= 72
72x4.5= 324 gpt
I don't know how CKS has 500+ either, maybe my calculations are screwy. I even included golden age income. Maybe % are bonuses are more powerful than adding?
I figured the multipliers and discovered why 20k cities are ultra super-science. The city in the picture (hattusas) produces 60 raw commerce- 50 directly seen and 12 from tourists to statue of zeus.
Due to ongoing war I needed reducing science to 50% but thats not connected to the topic.
The income is assigned: 6-luxuries,31- science and 25-taxes.
I have two science wonders and two improvements and the final science is 124bpt which is 4*raw science. Taxes magnified *2+ 2 taxmen
The second example is Constantinopolis which has also 58 raw commerce (14 from tourists) divided: 6-luxuries (have also 2 clowns),11 taxes and 41 science. Total science is 225 which is 5.5*raw science (all wonders and improvements).
The magnification is indeed 450% but takes tourist income as raw commerce. It also explains the huge amount of corrupted commerce in London- It has 37 raw commerce and 69! corrupted commerce.
Those legendary cities can get about 50 raw commerce+ say 40 tourist income to get 90 raw commerce and 495bpt
Due to ongoing war I needed reducing science to 50% but thats not connected to the topic.
The income is assigned: 6-luxuries,31- science and 25-taxes.
I have two science wonders and two improvements and the final science is 124bpt which is 4*raw science. Taxes magnified *2+ 2 taxmen
The second example is Constantinopolis which has also 58 raw commerce (14 from tourists) divided: 6-luxuries (have also 2 clowns),11 taxes and 41 science. Total science is 225 which is 5.5*raw science (all wonders and improvements).
The magnification is indeed 450% but takes tourist income as raw commerce. It also explains the huge amount of corrupted commerce in London- It has 37 raw commerce and 69! corrupted commerce.
Those legendary cities can get about 50 raw commerce+ say 40 tourist income to get 90 raw commerce and 495bpt
Here is a picture of Ur. I'm getting tourist income from 5 wonders. This isn't, in my opinion, a super science city - I'm reasonably sure I've seen screenshots with 700-ish bpt. I looked around a little bit in the screenshot thread, but haven't found any yet.
I don't really re-roll much for 20k. You can almost always find a reasonable site close to your start. If I am playing a HOF game I'll look for fresh water and not all jungle, but even there I usually look through fewer than 5 starts, and I don't use Mapfinder.
I don't really re-roll much for 20k. You can almost always find a reasonable site close to your start. If I am playing a HOF game I'll look for fresh water and not all jungle, but even there I usually look through fewer than 5 starts, and I don't use Mapfinder.
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creamcheese
Spreading since 1990
I did not know that tourist income could be multiplied like that. I thought it was like taxman income, doesn't multiply and doesn't get added to science.
I learn something new about civ every time I visit here!
I am definitely going to see how much science I can get in a city.
I learn something new about civ every time I visit here!
I am definitely going to see how much science I can get in a city.
Skullsplitter
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
- Messages
- 108
Yes, creamcheese, but what really impressed me is that he hadn't yet finished sanitation, so couldn't go over 12.
And I forgot about the Golden Age.
For the life of me, I could not come up with a way to get over 7 gold per tile, and that was roaded mountains with either gems or gold on a river. Colossus and whales, maybe? Can whales be in coastal squares? But as I think back on it, tourist income made a big difference.
Which was another reason I switched back to vanilla. It was just too easy to screw the AI by taking his long-standing wonder after making a big GPT deal. The first time it was accidentally, since I had no idea what other GPT trades he had going.
And I forgot about the Golden Age.
For the life of me, I could not come up with a way to get over 7 gold per tile, and that was roaded mountains with either gems or gold on a river. Colossus and whales, maybe? Can whales be in coastal squares? But as I think back on it, tourist income made a big difference.
Which was another reason I switched back to vanilla. It was just too easy to screw the AI by taking his long-standing wonder after making a big GPT deal. The first time it was accidentally, since I had no idea what other GPT trades he had going.
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