Wonder Economy / Super Specialists

[blitzkrieg1980]

I've read in a few posts that people on higher levels of play can utilize a Wonder Economy / Super Specialist economy and achieve 10 - 20 wonders on Immortal! If ANYONE has information on this, please post. I would like to try using this in my Noble games.

 

[Iranon]

On Noble, you should be able to Just Do It - on Immortal it might require a slightly odd tech tree if you aren't willing to give up on a few useful wonders.

Since your strongest production city will not be available for settlers, workers and units, adequate expansion can be a problem. Hence, I'd suggest trying this with Augustus at first; half price settlers, a building that makes GPs pop faster and Praetorians are all nice.

It's worth noting that one super city with settled Great People can pretty much drive your entire economy if you use savvy trading, 6 cities should be sufficient to win (enough to build the important national wonders on Normal, and to have cathedrals etc in cities 2 and 3 if you go for a cultural victory).
Being able to forgo expansion doesn't mean you should though... with the wonders that give per-city-bonuses like the Great Lighthouse or the religious wonders, for example, it seems a waste not to seize as many cities as possible. I tend to gravitate towards domination rather than turtling up for a space race.

The key is not giving up prematurely. By denying the AI wonders, you put them back considerably; don't let yourself be discouraged by not having certain techs or a certain amount of land by the time you're used to.
By hogging all the wonders you are slowing down the AI considerably, you will catch up and leave them in the dust.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Search for threads by Obsolete, unfortunately i think they lost pictures when CFC was hacked some time ago.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Okay. I think I get it. I'm really not sure what the Wonder Economy / Super Specialist strategy is, though. Is it wonder spamming? Is there anything else to it?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Spam wonders for GPP, settle specialists generated (super-capital), rinse & repeat - leads very nice production & science when done correctly. I think thats basically it..

 

[jackdog]

I think it is basically wonder spamming all in the same city and settling specialists not burning them on tech or golden ages. I remember Obsolete posted a game at various stages and only had 3 or so cities for ages, but hell were they good ones with massive production and science, he then reached critical mass and steam rolled the other civs with an advanced army. I remember, I think, he particularly likes prophets for the gold and production bonus and was less bothered about scientists.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

with regards to Obsolete's game: How do you tech doing it that way? Where's the beakers coming from?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Representation/settled specialists, prophets also give nice amount of gold. Obsolete did one example without mids/rep, but you generally will want those.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Sorry for the n00bish question, but what is mids? I know what rep is, but what's mids?

 

[CCRunner]

Pyramids world wonder. It's usually abbreviated as the mids

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

thnx. i shoulda known that from context.

 

[DMOC]

Edit: To see a sample wonder economy game on emperor difficulty, see post #17



Tips for Wonder Economy/Super Specialist Economy


I have played numerous games using the wonder economy on emperor and immortal difficulty and I can safely say that Ramesses II is the easiest leader to play (obsolete played as Ramesses a lot).

Ramesses is Industrious, which is the best trait for a wonder economy, for obvious reasons. His second trait, Spiritual, is also great for many reasons (if you get backstabbed after resesearching Nationalism, for instance, just instantly switch to Nationhood and draft a bunch of units to defend yourself).

Here's basically what's important:

1. Build every wonder you can in the capital EXCEPT for wonders which generate Great Artist points (examples are Statue of Zeus and the Parthenon). This is actually a general rule since you don't want to be generating Great Artists. The exception to this is the Taj Mahal, which should be built in the capital. It is not a mandated rule, though, so if you really want to include a great artist polluting wonder in the capital, you can do so.

2. Whenever you get specialists, settle them in the city. This will increase production levels of the capital (if engineer, scientist, or priest), increase gold output (priest, artists, merchants), food levels (merchant), increase science output (if engineer, spy, scientist) or increase espionage output (if spy) and when you get The Pyramids, you can switch to Representation so that all those settled specialists generate an EXTRA 3 beakers. This can pay off in the long run. The exception to settling in the city is when you have your first great scientist (use for academy) or you have a Great Artist (Save for a golden age).

3. Since you'll be running mainly a specialist economy based on your capital, you should try and get your other cities to do the same thing. Build as many farms in your other cities and run scientist specialists to generate even more research. Don't forget to get at least 2 other good cities for production.

4. Military. You will be a sitting duck in the beginnign stages since you are focusing on wonders. To counter this, you need to have good diplomatic skills and also get other cities to generate military (capital should be focusing on wonders!). Often times, I waited until tanks in my high level games to go to war (or rifles).

5. You can achieve basically any victory condition. Domination is certainly possible (most common type for WE is late game domination) when you mass up tanks and beat up other AI"s. Space is more common with my WE and Obsolete's because your capital will have HUGE amounts of production thanks to all those settle priests, engineers, and scientists you have.

6. Your civics. The most important civics for WE are Representation and Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy improves production and commerce levels for the capital (production is really what matters) which will help it construct wonders faster. Representation gives every settled specialist +3 beakers. Another important civic is Pacifism (helps you generate more GP in the capital).

7. Your capital.

Wonders that you should build include (in most commom build order):

1. The Great Wall
1. Stonehenge

(the previous two are listed as the same because you should build both, but depending on the leader, you can build the wall first, stonehenge second, or vice versa).

3. The Oracle (usually I pick Aesthetics since that unlocks even MORE wonders -- be sure you research Writing before completing the Oracle).

4. The Pyramids (this is critical - adopt representation!)

5. The Hanging Gardens

6. The Great Library (depending on game you can also build Shwedagon Paya, the Statue of Zeus, or the Parthenon before, but try and get the latter two to be produced in different cities, if possible).

7. Angkor Wat (you can also choose to build Chichen Itza, which isn't even a bad wonder for our purposes since it generates Great Prophet points).

8. The Taj Mahal (pick Nationalism as your free tech from Liberalism).

9. Depends from there on. Statue of Liberty is nice, the media wonders are nice...

8. National Wonders - usually I put Ironworks in the capital as well as Oxford University (oxford will increase science output by 100%). As an alternative, you can use the National Epic in the capital as well. You can save Ironworks for another city if you wish.

10. Final tips for the capital: For your first WE game, choose a capital with lots of trees and hills. You will need to extensively use chopping and put mines for production. To get the food necesssary, build farms. Ramesses II is great for this since he starts with Agriculture and the Wheel, so if you've got corn in your capital, you can farm and road it right away.

Oh yeah, the capital should pretty much always build a worker first. If you get a coastal start it gets different. Coastal starts really suck for WE so if I were playing random maps as Ramesses II and got a coastal start, I wouldn't use a WE, I would just play either a Specialist Economy or a Cottage Economy. After your worker, on high levels, you should start instantly on one of the beginning wonders (SH or GW) but on Noble, you can afford to build perhaps a few more warriors before starting either of those two wonders.

And as you can probably guess, stone and marble are great for this strategy. Try to obtain those resources.

Now, you may have a question concerning HOW THIS ECONOMY WORKS EXACTLY.

There are several main reasons.

1. Taking wonders SEVERELY cripples the AI, making them research slower, lose benefits that they could have had with a wonder, and so on. For instance, building the Oracle means you deny the AI's a free tech which could have been an expensive Metal Casting or Feudalism. This is why I can comfortably research Liberalism much later than in an ordinary CE game.

2. Wonders help generate Great People points, and if you pack a ton of them in your capital...it stacks up. So you can get lots of Great People. In most cases, settling in the city is best, especially with Representation. And don't forget that if you build a library in your capital, those extra 3 beakers suddenly increase by 25%.

3. All these super specialists packed in your capital mean that you have lots of research/production/gold. In a typical WE game I usually have 15-20 superspecialists packed in the capital. If you, for instance, have 20 settled Great Prophets with Representation, that means you have (20 * 5 = 100 gold just from priests), (3 * 20 = 60 beakers just from priests) and (2 * 20 = 40 hammers just from priests!). That's a lot, and when you've got banks, markets, grocers, libraries, universities, and so on, that will INCREASE all of those outputs.



@ blitzkrieg1980

So hopefully that was a helpful post. If you want, I can post a game of mine here (we could have 2 games running in this thread if you want).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Thnx so much, bro. I think I'll try this tonight with my Pyramids rush game.

 

[DMOC]

Cool, be sure to take some screenshots and post them here.

Do you mind if I post my own game?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Go for it, man. I'd love to see how others play. I haven't loaded and played anyone's uploaded games yet.

 

[The Snug]

I hadn't heard about the WE or obsolete's use of it (I've neglected reading the strategy forums, bcz I'm impatient), but it sounds very similar to the style I've been developing lately. Get as many wonders as I can, and I always settle my GP's so that I can multiply their output. Militarily vulnerable in the beginning, wait for critical mass. I like it, a good builders strategy. Takes patience though, and fortitude.

 

[DMOC]

Super Specialist Economy/Wonder Economy


Game settings:

Leader: Ramesses II (Industrious/Spiritual)
Map: Continents (6 other civs for a total of 7)
Difficulty: Emperor
Speed: Normal

Oh yes, and there aren't any settings like "Aggressive AI" or "No Barbarians" it's just straight up normal settings....


Here's our start:

I regenerated three times for this start. The first start I got was practically all coastal and wouldn't be a good instructive for WE. The second start I had stone in the capital and regenerated since it would be too easy. The THIRD time I regenerated I get stone AGAIN. Now this is the 4th regeneration and it finally looks like a normal start.

Settle in place, research Mining - Masonry - Bronze Working - Mysticism - Polytheism - Priesthood - Animal Husbanry - Pottery - Mathematics. Start worker first.

Along the way we meet Alexander. OK, I guess it's time to regenerate until we get a better neighbor.

Just kidding!

Also meet Wang Kon. Finally, a guy who I never worry about. But he stole a tribal village near my capital!

Anyway, here's the Great Wall ready:

(Went worker first and built a warrior until Masonry was researched - then I just started the GW).

A few turns later, Stonehenge is ready.

Stonehenge building was accelerated by a chop after researching Bronze Working (this is why the hill to the north of the capital is unforested and unmined).

Now, there is a gap between SH/GW and the Oracle, so I decided to chop a settler to claim the nearby copper.

It's not a magnificent city, but I really need the copper when I've got an aggressive neighbor like Alex next door. Oh yes, and notice in the picture that my worker and settler are unescorted. The power of the Great Wall!

After producing a settler and spending several turns producing the Pyramids, my capital is ready for the Oracle. Writing is 1 turn away which means that I will have a wide variety of techs to choose as my free tech.

I chose Aesthetics for the head start on all those wonders, and of course, for the ultra-important Great Library once I get Literature!

We get a Great Spy from the great wall. I settle him in the capital. That's an instant +3 beakers and +12 espionage! This is why I can suddenly see my opponent's research!

What's more, the AI tries to match up your EP so Alex and Wang might (hopefully) bump up the EP slider, hurting their research in the progress! Once again, ANOTHER benefit of the Wonder Economy.

We get this greed quest. I'll probably ignore it - Alex is annoyed with Wang so why should I piss him off?

The Pyramids is ready for completion!

The Pyramids was helped by several chops.

So here ends Round 1. I have not adopted slavery yet nor Representation (will do so 1st turn next round). I am now producing some military. Can't neglect it with Alex around, even if he and Wang are annoyed towards each other.

I hope this game will be fun! No stone or marble, unfortunately.

 

[crazyunits]

woa, how'd u get mids so fast? i thought u didn't have stones? even w/ industrious it should take a while....

oh wait ur capital has tons of hammers >_>

 

[Daedal]

DMOC, that tips sheet above for a WE/SSE is awesome! Nice start on the game too. This really ought to go in the Strategy subforum...

 

[DMOC]

woa, how'd u get mids so fast? i thought u didn't have stones? even w/ industrious it should take a while....

oh wait ur capital has tons of hammers >_>

1. I only focused on wonders. I did not waste time on barracks/extra workers/granaries/military.

2. I chopped (IIRC only one for the Pyramids but being industrious that chop was magnified).

3. Mines.


As you can probably see, if you wind up with a high prod capital along with an ind leader, its probably a good idea to go WE. This is just the same as winding up with a financial leader and floodplains - you would go cottage economy.

Now I could have gotten the mids faster if I had stone, but none in sight....