"Wonder" Woman Thread - The Race to Stonehenge (and Other Assorted Wonders)

[Norton I]

I think it's good to start play-testing this.

Turn 77 Pyramids without OR is good, but when did we found our 3rd and 4th cities? I think to optimize our plan we need to get three events as early as possible:
1. 3rd City built on Jennilund
2. 4th City built on Home Island (just realized, do we have a name for our island?
3. Pyramids completed

I'll give it a try and see what I can come up with.

I got it at turn 77 by not building or whipping a settler in Them. I let Otreta grow to size 5 by building a few warriors, after which it pumps out settlers in a rate of 5/6 turns. So once it's running it's effective, but it takes (too much?) time to get the first settler and get a city on jennilund.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I got it at turn 77 by not building or whipping a settler in Them. I let Otreta grow to size 5 by building a few warriors, after which it pumps out settlers in a rate of 5/6 turns. So once it's running it's effective, but it takes (too much?) time to get the first settler and get a city on jennilund.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I think we will need a quick settler, but probably only one from Them. Otreta can build warriors and maybe a work boat (as suggested by damnrunner if we think our Jennilund city will have a seafood in it's BFC. How long until Otreta can grow to size 5? I think it ought to be pretty quick because each time the city grows it should be able to start working a new sheep. I will do some numbers.

 

[damnrunner]

The Settler 1st Plan:
So this focuses on early production of another warrior and 2 settlers. Then Mids. I think my math is a pretty solid, but someone should test my back of the envelope math with an in game test.

It is currently turn 44
t48 - Finish galley (zero overflow) start Warrior (I think we need one more), finish mine.
t49 grow to pop 6 (move N to forest hill )
t50 finish warrior turn 6 (9 overflow), start settler, worker begins chop (4 turns)
t51 slave for 2 pop
t52 finish settler (14 overflow), start settler
t53 switch to Mids (26 invested in settler)
t54 finish chop, switch back to settler, (6 hammers invested in Mids)
t55 finish settler (1 overflow), restart pyramids, begin mine
t59 grow to pop 5 (at this point we should have invested 31 hammers), finish mine (at this point the worker just chops everything... )
t69 grow to pop 6 (at this point we should have invested 121 hammers)
t77 grow to pop 7(at this point we should have invested 217 hammers)

This leaves 283 hammers. I think we can get 120 of these from a 4 pop whip. That would leave 163 hammers. We should be able to chop that, especially if we use the grass forests just to the north of the Them BFC (this is a total of 7 forests so we would have to average ~23.3 hammers per chop). However, to do all this chopping by turn 77 we will need to send over a second worker from Orteta. We also will need to optimize the chops order so that we don't waste any turns due to worker movement.

Or we could do no chopping and no whipping and just build the wonder by turn 93. This represents the max slowest we would get the wonder.

Assumptions:
-at pop 4 we produce +6 hammers and +6 food
-at pop 5 we produce +9 hammers and +5 food (currently we do 4 food but I assume later we work a mined grass hill
-at pop 6 we produce +12 hammers and +4 food
at pop 7 we produce +15 hammers and +2 food (I assume we leave the plains hill as our very last chop. That way we can work it at the very end without needing to spend turns building another mine.)
-Due to our trait each settler is effectively worth 67 hammers rather than 100
-Chops within one tile of a city are worth 30 hammers
-each point of slaved population is worth 30 hammers

 

[damnrunner]

I realize the 67 hammers for a settler is not a great estimate as we only get the bonus on hammers not food. The 1st settler estimate should still be ok but the 2nd one might need an extra turn or 2 to finish.

 

[remake20]

So many long posts. Could someone sum them up? (From post 110 on)

 

[damnrunner]

Summary:
Essentially do we go for Mids or not. The consensus is we go for them. The debate has been about how much we delay to also do expansion. I am pushing for building 2 settlers fast in Them and then doing Mids. Sommers has a plan that starts on MIds right away and switches out to whip settlers. At the end of the day it is the same # of hammers invested but it is a question of faster vs. slower settler production balanced against the optimum speed for building Mids.

I have posted estimates for my strategy as I don’t have BTS and can’t directly game test. Sommers has posted preliminary results of game testing, but some of the details remain a bit unclear.

 

[remake20]

Okay, thank you.

 

[damnrunner]

So do we have a plan for Them? We will complete the galley in a few turns and need to have a plan by then. We have voted on Mids with some (5-10 ish turns) of delay to boost expansion. Several plans have been laid out. I think what we need is a summary conclusion of what each plans nets. And then we can take a vote. Does that seem logical to folks?

@Silent and Norton
Turning Orteta into a settler pump is a good idea - but I think that will be most useful to settle Marthaland. My thinking is that in the short term we need to use the city as a worker pump. As it is we will need a worker to improve Orteta, and we need a worker to improve city#3 on Jennyland, and we need a worker (and I think we may actually want 2) to chop at Them. Right now we only have 2 workers and I think we need 3 if not 4.

Therefore I would rather have Orteta build 1 or 2 workers at pop 3 while working 3 sheep. Also with our trait we only get a boost to hammers (not extra food) going into settler production. Therefore we should not "waste" extra food by directly building a settler. It would be more efficient to grow city and then whip out a settler. This is even more so once we get a granary up and running.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The Settler 1st Plan:
t77 grow to pop 7(at this point we should have invested 217 hammers)

This leaves 283 hammers. I think we can get 120 of these from a 4 pop whip... to do all this chopping by turn 77 we will need to send over a second worker from Orteta. We also will need to optimize the chops order so that we don't waste any turns due to worker movement.

Or we could do no chopping and no whipping and just build the wonder by turn 93.

Using the above estimation that gets the Mids on turn 77, I just finished a test taking damnrunner's more recent suggestion that we focus on workers from Otreta. Following that model:

1. I got the Pyramids on turn 74.
2. On turn 73 I used a 2 pop whip, Leaving Themisyra at Pop 6 (from pop 8).
3. I built 4 workers from Otreta pausing only to chop a Missionary to spread Judaism to Themiscyra (for the Organized Religion production bonus).
4. I got Judaism, switched to Organized Religion, and then to Judaism as soon as the Missionary spread it to Themiscyra.
5. I founded a city On the coastal Deer in the NE Blackwoods to get additional
6. I added the tech of Wheel (from Sirius) to be able to hook up the sheep (also for the (health)
7. I chopped all of Themiscyras forests and mined all of the hills. At pop 8 we are working all of them.
8. I built a monument for happiness before hitting pop 8.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Did you add the forest that grew 1N of Them? Not sure if the test map had that added. If not we have another chop.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes I added that forest to the test map

 

[damnrunner]

Using the above estimation that gets the Mids on turn 77, I just finished a test taking damnrunner's more recent suggestion that we focus on workers from Otreta. Following that model:

1. I got the Pyramids on turn 74.
2. On turn 73 I used a 2 pop whip, Leaving Themisyra at Pop 6 (from pop 8).
3. I built 4 workers from Otreta pausing only to chop a Missionary to spread Judaism to Themiscyra (for the Organized Religion production bonus).
4. I got Judaism, switched to Organized Religion, and then to Judaism as soon as the Missionary spread it to Themiscyra.
5. I founded a city On the coastal Deer in the NE Blackwoods to get additional
6. I added the tech of Wheel (from Sirius) to be able to hook up the sheep (also for the (health)
7. I chopped all of Themiscyras forests and mined all of the hills. At pop 8 we are working all of them.
8. I built a monument for happiness before hitting pop 8.

Thanks for the game test sommers. Turn 74 is real good. I assume that still get the 2 settlers out from Them right?

Also one comment on point #5
I think founding on the deer is probably not wise. Better to found on furs right for +1 happy. Then you don't need to build a monument and can't we get the needed +1 health from clams. A city founded on Furs will also have more long term viability. Though in the trade off for Mids you could make a good argument either way.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Here is the reasoning on the founding of the city on Deer. It allows us to work all the furs for Max . Our NE city will not have a problem or growth problem. There are plenty of sources of food for the city. However, our empire DOES have a cash flow problem, as we are not FIN.

Good point about the settlers. I did not build any settlers from Themiscyra in my test.

So... In thinking about Pyramids I am thinking now that we might better off skipping them. Themiscyra can grow larger if we keep the forests and we are going to have a tough time beating the Mavs Great Engineer.

Make no mistake, the Mavs WILL rush an engineer and risk getting the prophet. That is the only smart play for them. Think about it. They founded a religion, so the faster they get their prophet, the more they make. Rushing the points in their Oracle city is a win-win situation for them. If they get an engineer, they bulb/clock the Pyramids in 1 turn. If they get a prophet, they build Kashi vishy and start making holy-gold.

We can't go for Mids and risk that they get the engineer. That would be a disaster. We should refocus on expansion, our stretngth as an IMP civ, get to Marthaton build the GW ASAP, and start talking about what other wonder we want.

 

[leonisgod]

I agree with Sommer, I think we go for REX and forget the Mids.

 

[damnrunner]

My thoughts on our food rich northern cities. I still think settling on furs is a better option. This is certainly the case for the NW city as it will be able to run several cottages and also will have a few mines. For the NE city it has less gold producing potential, but I would rther have the extra food and be able to run some specialists. This is more useful if we do go for Mids of course, but even if we don't, strong GP production can be a hugely beneficial to a non-financial civ.

On going for the Mids - sommers seems you have had quite a turn around. I would really like to go for Mids, but the risk of losing out to a GE rush are sizable.

Shall we take a new poll then? If we don't go for Mids we need to go crazy on Settler production to really REX Jennyland and Marthaland. I think agreeing to equally share Jennyland probably makes sense so that we don't waste resources fighting and can quickly grab all of Marthaland.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I put my reply in the City three thread because it is more on-topic.

As far as Pyramids go, we never really decided when to build them, the poll said 5-10 turns, so I guess we can discuss how to proceed for a little while while Themiscyra builds 2 settlers instead of one.

If we are considering abandoning Pyramids though, we should try to get input from as many on the team as possible.

 

[SilentConfusion]

My thoughts on our food rich northern cities. I still think settling on furs is a better option. This is certainly the case for the NW city as it will be able to run several cottages and also will have a few mines. For the NE city it has less gold producing potential, but I would rther have the extra food and be able to run some specialists. This is more useful if we do go for Mids of course, but even if we don't, strong GP production can be a hugely beneficial to a non-financial civ.

On going for the Mids - sommers seems you have had quite a turn around. I would really like to go for Mids, but the risk of losing out to a GE rush are sizable.

Shall we take a new poll then? If we don't go for Mids we need to go crazy on Settler production to really REX Jennyland and Marthaland. I think agreeing to equally share Jennyland probably makes sense so that we don't waste resources fighting and can quickly grab all of Marthaland.

I too would tend to lean towards settling the NE city on fur rather than deer. The food plus hammers combo from the deer fits nicely with our rapid Settler rush and as damnrunner suggests specialists can make up for the loss of the extra commerce from the fur.

According to this guide commerce resources that are next to rivers add 2 commerce to city center, food resources (although they don't have deer listed) that are on grasslands add 1 food to city center, and production resources add 1 hammer if on a plains tile or 2 if on a plains hill. So these don't apply to any of the resources we're talking about settling on.

An improved tundra forest Fur (iTfFur) yields 1f1h4c, while an improved tundra forest Deer (iTfDeer) yields 4f1h. A city center on either tile would be 2f1h1c. The food gain by settling on Fur instead of Deer (and you can also count not having to work a 1f Fur tile as a gain of food) is more valuable than the commerce gain the other way.

A city settled on Fur can work the Deer and yield: 6f2h1c at 2 pop.
A city settled on Deer can work the Fur and yield: 3f2h5c at 2 pop.

Settling on Deer in effect trades 3 food for 4 commerce, a pretty bad trade by most calculations. Even without running Specialists I think that's a lopsided deal due to the whipping conversion of food to hammers with a granary. It is even more lopsided when you consider that we'll be whipping and building Settlers (with our bonus) and specialists.

I feel the same way as damnrunner. I really want the 'Mids, but I realize the consequence of losing them is great. I am not as convinced that Mavs intend to build the 'Mids, but taking the chance might be too risky. Whereas doing a Settler rush is far less risky with potentially comparable rewards.

We should also consider the fact that we may meet someone soon on the other side of Marthaland. If this is the Mavs and we can bring them into our trade agreements we may be able to tell what they've teched. Lots could change if we meet someone soon.

But as it stands I agree: if we don't go Pyramids we want to do a max settler rush on Marthaland and potentially on the land directly south of us, although that land may be less contested.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Now that our alliance is secure and we are on the way to a 4-way (hopefully), I would like discuss the benefits of GW.

1. Now that we know that there is no "Mainland" but instead a map comprised of a bunch of islands arranged in a star formation, the benefits of waiting to build the GW on Marthaton are greatly diminished. We would be getting GW for the Great Spy.

2. Now that GW is principally for the Spy instead of defense, there is little incentive to wait any longer, because it does not matter where we get it.

3. There is a big incentive to get GW right away, to guarantee that our first Great Person is a Spy. GW only generates 2 per turn, which is a lock for the first Great Person, but is much weaker after.

4. The reason we want our first Great Person to be a spy is so we can quickly settle him in the Capital. Why the capital? Because this will make our capital a huge generator. There are some great benefits to doing it this way. The settled Great Spy will provide +12 per turn, increasing our capital's output from 4:espionage per turn to 16 per turn. We want to concentrate the espy points in the capital, because the Palace already produces espy, and if we have espy concetrated in one city, we maximize the benefit from Scotland Yard.

5. Scotland Yard, built by our second Great Spy, will give +100% in the city where it is built. That will make our 32/turn. The second Great spy is produced by running a courthouse Spy along with the GW spy points. 32 espy per turn is basically enough to see anyones demographics in just one turn. It is enough to steal tech in 4-5 turns. If we continue running the Spy specialist after that (which we should), our espy will be even higher.

6. Once our enemies are set, we will be able to use our hopelessly high espy to see in their cities and see what they are teching, and with their puny 4 per turn they will be powerless to stop us. Imagine knowing exactly what units Merlot is building while we are contesting Marthaton. Imagine knowing exactly what units they are building, and being able to plan our defenses/ offense accordingly. To me that alone is worth the small investment of GW and a courthouse.

I will discuss more about how this high espy count benefits us in a later post, but the problem of being seen as a pariah is solved, because we are very close to having our 2 enemy civs decided.

 

[Sommerswerd]

BTW I was able to test this and I got GW easily in 10 turns by just sending Pickles to chop near Themiscyra when he finishes the chop of the NW city site. If we send Bob over to chop as well, it does not speed GW, but i does ensure that we can get a Granary in 4 turns right after the GW with the chop overflow.

I think this is worth it, as it basically means we can have Granary AND GW in capital in 14 turns (in addition to our Jennilund city AND Diana's Island completely settled, which I was also able to do in this test.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Ok, in a situation where we have a 4-team alliance soon, with two clear enemies, it even becomes more ok to steal techs. If we steal techs from our enemies and give them to the Alliance, they will be appreciative and we will actually be potentially a bigger contributor to tech than the FIN civs because the discount on EP to beakers is considerable. We of course can't send spies to our opponents home islands before we get Caravels, but we can use them in a mainland city. We should allow Merlot at least one for this purpose.

I have always understood the passive value of high EP. I was worried that if we focused on EP people would leave us out due to perceived later game threat and that we couldn't steal from anyone because then our diplo would go down, however I believe now that I was wrong and didn't understand how the situation would shake out. In the current situation I think we can find a use for all of the EP points that we get, and I would whole-heartedly vote yes on trying to get the Great Wall. Just remember that we gave Sirius Masonry, so we should probably tell them we're going for Great Wall as soon as we decide to do so, so they don't go and start it.

I believe the Mavs are going to try to get both the 'Mids and the Colossus. They will probably not go for the Great Wall before those two are in.