Wonders -- as used in CEP
- Thread starter ExpiredReign
- Start date
Moving into the Medieval Wonders:
Angkor_Wat: Vanilla, this is a pretty weak wonder, I never go for it myself. The new +40 inf to all CS certainly makes it tempting.
Hagia_Sophia: I like the vanilla version of it myself. Its a great wonder if I have been down in religion and want to catch up, its an okay wonder if I want to push my religion ahead. Don't see the need for a change.
Mosque of Djenne: This one could be the +1 faith specialists. I would rather leave wonders as close to their original use as possible to avoid confusion...as long as the original effect is useful.
Chitzchen_Itza: This one has always been mixed for me. I think its primarily because the AI just loves this wonder in vanilla. I think its a pretty solid wonder as is, I get it if I have a shot at it but I don't consider it OP.
Learning Tower: This to me is the strongest wonder of that era. I always go for this if I have a shot at it....and I will commonly save a Great Engineer for it. Afterall, I can just get that Engineer back with bonus. I think it could stay a soft nerf.
Porcelain Tower: I can't remember if the vanilla one gives 1 GS or 2? If its 2 I think lowering it to 1 makes sense, otherwise its fine.
Globe Theater: Very weak wonder overall, I think it should give some base culture as well.
Uffizi: Another weak wonder imo, perhaps it could get another free great work like the parthenon.
Alhambra: I think this one is a very strong wonder, another one that the AI will beeline for. It gives a very nice culture bonus, but the military bonus actually very strong, as it allows Tier 3 promotions in short order. I think a soft nerf would be good.
Machu Picchu: This was my favorite change from CEP for wonders. I like the super tile concept, its solid and fun.
Neuschwanstein: Now that the new happiness sytem makes castles worth having, this wonder may balance itself out without any tweaking.
Notre Dame: I want to see this wonder remain intact. The happiness bonus was too strong I think, but we could add on some culture, faith, or other bonus and remove some of the happy.
Taj Mahal: I though this one needs a bit more than the free GA, I think the new +4 happy is a good addition.
Angkor_Wat: Vanilla, this is a pretty weak wonder, I never go for it myself. The new +40 inf to all CS certainly makes it tempting.
Hagia_Sophia: I like the vanilla version of it myself. Its a great wonder if I have been down in religion and want to catch up, its an okay wonder if I want to push my religion ahead. Don't see the need for a change.
Mosque of Djenne: This one could be the +1 faith specialists. I would rather leave wonders as close to their original use as possible to avoid confusion...as long as the original effect is useful.
Chitzchen_Itza: This one has always been mixed for me. I think its primarily because the AI just loves this wonder in vanilla. I think its a pretty solid wonder as is, I get it if I have a shot at it but I don't consider it OP.
Learning Tower: This to me is the strongest wonder of that era. I always go for this if I have a shot at it....and I will commonly save a Great Engineer for it. Afterall, I can just get that Engineer back with bonus. I think it could stay a soft nerf.
Porcelain Tower: I can't remember if the vanilla one gives 1 GS or 2? If its 2 I think lowering it to 1 makes sense, otherwise its fine.
Globe Theater: Very weak wonder overall, I think it should give some base culture as well.
Uffizi: Another weak wonder imo, perhaps it could get another free great work like the parthenon.
Alhambra: I think this one is a very strong wonder, another one that the AI will beeline for. It gives a very nice culture bonus, but the military bonus actually very strong, as it allows Tier 3 promotions in short order. I think a soft nerf would be good.
Machu Picchu: This was my favorite change from CEP for wonders. I like the super tile concept, its solid and fun.
Neuschwanstein: Now that the new happiness sytem makes castles worth having, this wonder may balance itself out without any tweaking.
Notre Dame: I want to see this wonder remain intact. The happiness bonus was too strong I think, but we could add on some culture, faith, or other bonus and remove some of the happy.
Taj Mahal: I though this one needs a bit more than the free GA, I think the new +4 happy is a good addition.
I might just be used to them, but I really don't mind there being somewhat stronger and somewhat weaker wonders, it is all about choices and priorites. The Meh-wonders are usually easier to get while it's a huge gamble going to things like alhambra and chichen itza. The leaning tower is really stupid (the wonder not the effects) and should probably be switched for something else. (never really saw why a failed tower that sank into the ground would be considered a wonder).
I think there should be another warfocused wonder somewhere in the renaissance, most of the existing ones are in medieval as far as I remember.
On a completely different note I really like the Banaue Rice Terraces as a wonder, they are extremely impressive IRL and they fit the concept of a foodbased wondern better than some hanging gardens that may or may not have existed. Ofc the effect is based for CEP so it needs to be brought into line with the existing wonders. Haning garden could fill some other role (Happiness from CEP is totally fine imo)
If there is place for another industrial era wonder I think Arc de Triomphe would be a nice fit. It's a really cool and one of the most famous monuments in the world. No clue what it could provide, and there may be overlapping with the Brandenburg gate. But industrial era feels rather empty wondervise, atleast in my opinion.
I think like most things its a matter of degrees.
For example, I think the base Taj is on the weak side, but not so much that I ignore it completely. But Ankor Wat I never get myself.
Also I am less concerned about strict wonder balance towards the later eras, because there is a lot more to factor in. If I have a strong science or hammer lead, I might be able to pick up a few wonders there that I normally wouldn't get. My hammers are freerer at this point to pick up a few more oddball things.
Early game...every hammer is so precious just to build infrastructure, and then you throw in some many wonders at once. There is so much competition for your hammers at that point that the wonders really have to be competitive with each other.
I can see your point. I've managed to pick up AW a few times on emperor, once by getting a great start and hardbuilding it, once by scoring an early Great engineer and rushing it
Radical Idea: What if the Great Library unlocked on Piety?
Here's my thinking:
Flavor: Our modern minds might say "Science and Religion don't mix!" but in ancient times religious priests and leaders were some of the most learned men. Many advances in knowledge happened through religious centers like temples. It is not a stretch to link science and faith.
Balance: It would certainty give people a stronger reason to take Piety. Further, the GL is always a crap shoot kind of wonder because so many AIs often go for it. One of the things the unlock wonder mechanic was built for was to narrow the race on a lot of wonders to only a few civs...making it more likely you might get those wonders.
Here's my thinking:
Flavor: Our modern minds might say "Science and Religion don't mix!" but in ancient times religious priests and leaders were some of the most learned men. Many advances in knowledge happened through religious centers like temples. It is not a stretch to link science and faith.
Balance: It would certainty give people a stronger reason to take Piety. Further, the GL is always a crap shoot kind of wonder because so many AIs often go for it. One of the things the unlock wonder mechanic was built for was to narrow the race on a lot of wonders to only a few civs...making it more likely you might get those wonders.
I personally don't have anything against this, but there are probably better pietybased wonders. (And I personally think the great library is boring as )
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
Hmmm, I like it, but not for Piety. Depending on how the Liberty discussion goes, though, I think that tree might be a possible candidate for the Great Library (especially if we remove the current pyramid bonuses to buff the policy itself, I find it how important having the pyramids is at the moment).
Regarding Piety: I actually think the Oracle might make a good wonder for Piety, it fits perfectly flavour-wise (and even gives you great scientist points!) and helps the current Piety and its sluggish pace of unlocking more policies somewhat. And while it isn't the strongest wonder, it's a very fun wonder, everybody likes free policies!
mitsho
Deity
Can see both truly.
I can also see pushing that side of the tech tree a bit around (adding a mysticism tech) or even splitting up the Great Library into two wonders and putting one (the free tech) with the military side. But then there's already enough wonders.
I can also see pushing that side of the tech tree a bit around (adding a mysticism tech) or even splitting up the Great Library into two wonders and putting one (the free tech) with the military side. But then there's already enough wonders.
Honestly wouldn't mind seing the free tech just go, with how early it goes you might at best get ironworking or philosophy with it. And considering how many catchuptools exist, getting a free tech (Specially one that cheap) isn't going to make a difference.
The other parts of the great library are great, the GW-slots, the free library, the minimal science and great scientist point. Honestly speaking the other effects are so good that you could probably just remove the free tech without adding anything. (which probably sounds hilarious considering I just preached how a free tech isn't worth anything, but I just don't like it)
mitsho
Deity
It may be dropped, there are after all enough early wonders around. However, I feel a "wide food wonder" would be a niche that is not yet filled. What about +1 food on hill farms?
Agree, remove the free tech
I looked at CEPs list and honestly these seem fine to me, some comments:
Spoiler :
Personally I would just like to see some more industrial ones and fewer ancient/classical era. I don't think we need wonder unlocks on policy tree openers, but am fine with them if the majority wants them. I can see some shuffeling around of the tech tree in the early game.
As for religious wonders, I feel they are fine as detailed in the chart. Especially with the new religion system
If the CEP '+1food on deserts with freshwater'-effect isn't added then the petra should stay the way it is, with the change to desert folklore it already took a pretty big hit.
I don't see a reason to nerf the stonehenge, it is already pretty damn weak imo, and giving up 2 faith per turn for 20 instant faith really isn't that good of a deal.
I would be totally find with splitting ToA into two different wonders, maybe giving the %food effect + something else as a traditionlocked wonder?
Maybe give the extra exp for archers (or make it all units?) to a honor-specific wonder along with some other effect? (bonus sieging?)
The CEP-style Terracotta army isn't a good idea, 5culture is way too strong for an ancient era wonder, and so is getting maxed out borders.
I personally don't think the mausoleum needs to be removed, a ancient-era goldwonder is nice. It needs to be changed somewhat however, stone/marble gold is pretty situational. Maybe make it give you 1 gold on all luxuries? or all resources?
I don't see a reason to nerf the stonehenge, it is already pretty damn weak imo, and giving up 2 faith per turn for 20 instant faith really isn't that good of a deal.
I would be totally find with splitting ToA into two different wonders, maybe giving the %food effect + something else as a traditionlocked wonder?
Maybe give the extra exp for archers (or make it all units?) to a honor-specific wonder along with some other effect? (bonus sieging?)
The CEP-style Terracotta army isn't a good idea, 5culture is way too strong for an ancient era wonder, and so is getting maxed out borders.
I personally don't think the mausoleum needs to be removed, a ancient-era goldwonder is nice. It needs to be changed somewhat however, stone/marble gold is pretty situational. Maybe make it give you 1 gold on all luxuries? or all resources?
mitsho
Deity
If stonehenge stay on calendar, then 3 faith is certainly too low. The instant faith would only be interesting for people wanting a pantheon but nothing else. That's such a niche that other religious civ will build it before anyways... If however it's available on turn 0 it may be an interesting option to go for for a) civs going to the military side, b) have a real real headstart on religion. And it feels much more historical to have it appear as early as possible rather than later on.
I agree, the high culture amounts on some wonders (terracotta) struck me as well when going through that list. They seem neither interesting nor active nor balanced, just bland buffs. BUT I do like the effect a lot and if you think it's a strong enough effect on its own, then that is fine as well
A "xp-to-all-units" wonder is too similar to the Brandenburg gate, and fits better that late. The original ToA has faster build times for ranged units, so it is supposed to be a defensive wonder helpful to wide and tall. The %food (or growth?) effect would of course feel most home on the Banaue terrasses, if we want that. Better/Faster ranged units (Artemis is the goddess of hunt, thus bows and growth buffed btw.) fits well, but is it such an interesting role?
I much rather give ToA the "ancient-era goldwonder" role (Ephesos was a major affluent economic centre of the region). And my objection against the mausoleum was more a) that we have the "gold on using GP" effect on a policy (right?), b) there's a religion that obviously reminds of the mausoleum and c) stone/marble is pretty situational... But if you have a cool gold effect in mind. But shouldn't the Collosus be the ancient era gold wonder?
I'm fine with both.
I agree, the high culture amounts on some wonders (terracotta) struck me as well when going through that list. They seem neither interesting nor active nor balanced, just bland buffs. BUT I do like the effect a lot and if you think it's a strong enough effect on its own, then that is fine as well
A "xp-to-all-units" wonder is too similar to the Brandenburg gate, and fits better that late. The original ToA has faster build times for ranged units, so it is supposed to be a defensive wonder helpful to wide and tall. The %food (or growth?) effect would of course feel most home on the Banaue terrasses, if we want that. Better/Faster ranged units (Artemis is the goddess of hunt, thus bows and growth buffed btw.) fits well, but is it such an interesting role?
I much rather give ToA the "ancient-era goldwonder" role (Ephesos was a major affluent economic centre of the region). And my objection against the mausoleum was more a) that we have the "gold on using GP" effect on a policy (right?), b) there's a religion that obviously reminds of the mausoleum and c) stone/marble is pretty situational... But if you have a cool gold effect in mind. But shouldn't the Collosus be the ancient era gold wonder?
I'm fine with both.
Isn't colossus classical era?
My two cents:
Great Library: I love the free technology and would hate to see it go. IMHO it would be a mediocore wonder without it. And yes, I do think an early tech can make a big difference. Actually I think the bonus is somewhat equal whether we're talking about early or late game techs. Sure late game techs are much more expensive but that should be equalled by a higher tech output from the empire.
Stonehenge: I'd leave this as it is. A) an instant yield bonus is boring as h... B) it's only an instant bonus, e.g. it doen't help (directly) in the rest of the game and C) I find that the wonder is often built after you get your pantheon (provided you go for religion). It just takes longer to build the wonder than it does to accumulate enough faith from a shrine or two to get a pantheon.
Churches of Lalibela: Why remove the +1 religion spread for missionaries? I actually like that. IMHO you spend a lot of faith, spend time moving your unit to other cities (especially if it's other civs) and risk losing it to barbarians so its a good bonus to have more religion spreads from your units. However if the effect is just moved to Djenne it's fine by me.
Hanging Gardens: Has already been changed in CPP and I think this effect it quite fun.
Terracotta Army: Not fund of the instant border expansion bonus. It removes the fun of city border expansion for that particular city. I'd rather see a culture/turn bonus.
\Skodkim
Great Library: I love the free technology and would hate to see it go. IMHO it would be a mediocore wonder without it. And yes, I do think an early tech can make a big difference. Actually I think the bonus is somewhat equal whether we're talking about early or late game techs. Sure late game techs are much more expensive but that should be equalled by a higher tech output from the empire.
Stonehenge: I'd leave this as it is. A) an instant yield bonus is boring as h... B) it's only an instant bonus, e.g. it doen't help (directly) in the rest of the game and C) I find that the wonder is often built after you get your pantheon (provided you go for religion). It just takes longer to build the wonder than it does to accumulate enough faith from a shrine or two to get a pantheon.
Churches of Lalibela: Why remove the +1 religion spread for missionaries? I actually like that. IMHO you spend a lot of faith, spend time moving your unit to other cities (especially if it's other civs) and risk losing it to barbarians so its a good bonus to have more religion spreads from your units. However if the effect is just moved to Djenne it's fine by me.
Hanging Gardens: Has already been changed in CPP and I think this effect it quite fun.
Terracotta Army: Not fund of the instant border expansion bonus. It removes the fun of city border expansion for that particular city. I'd rather see a culture/turn bonus.
\Skodkim
mitsho
Deity
You're right, my bad. What was I confusing it with?
Reducing the added science but keeping the free tech is fine with me as well, makes it very similar to the Oracle.
Which is why I like making the wonder cheaper and with no tech requirement. Then the instant faith does help you with the pantheon and it's more of a question of granary or Stonehenge.
It's just a shuffle back of effects. We put the +1 faith on specialists in piety on the finisher, so Hagia Sophia got its prophet back, Djenne the extra religion spread and thus there's no place for Lalibela any more (unless we put the better holy sites-effect here?). But yes, the effect needs to stay.
Really, must have overlooked that.
Yeah, but you still reduce the wonder to something that "only" gives an instant bonus.
\Skodkim
I personally think the free tech is close to useless, you're not going to get the wonder if you delay it (since the AI always goes straight for it) which means at best you'll pick up philosophy or ironworking with it, not very expensive techs.
Getting one of those saves you a few turns of research, but with the way tech works in civ catching up is so easy your few turns of saved research isn't going to mean anything.
However even without the tech the wonder is great, an easy themingbonus for a GWtype where getting themebonuses is rare, a few flat science aswell as a great scientist point per turn (which actually is great, one of the reasons why the oracle is as good as it is). It also saves you like half its cost in hammers by giving you a free library.
IMHO that is an important bonus. You get to choose which tech you want and if you choose the most expensive it's a great boost that early in the game - might even help you get a new wonder.
\Skodkim
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