Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

[Aquilius]

Berlin Wall
Eureka technology bourse
Cern super collider
Baikonur Cosmodrome
Al-Jazeera network
Echelon surveillance system
Palatul Poporului

Oh boy!! How will a civ benefit from the Berlin Wall?? Maybe a very sarcastic national wonder for vassal states in Warlords?!?!?
Al-Jazeera sounds nice!

For myself I don't really need Broadway, Rock'n'Roll and Hollywood. Just too many american wonders and I don't really see these three as wonders.
I'm also very missing some german wonders. What about Oktoberfest (happiness), Die Hanse (trade), Gutenberg's Book Print (science), Wartburg (religion spreading) J.S. Bach's Cathedral, Neuschwanstein Castle (both cultural)?
Also the Palm Islands of Dubai should be taken into consideration.

 

[AvianAvenger]

Maybe Syndey Opera House, as it's a pretty famous icon (although I don't think it's 'wonder' material), but not the Syndney Harbour Bridge. The world has hundreds of cool bridges. I think the point of wonders in the game would be that most people in the world know them, regardless of what country they're from. That's why it's irrelevant if everyone in Australia knows the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

The bridge was a real bad example i didn't explain to well, alot of places have significant recognisable bridges... such as the golden gate bridge and so on. What i was thinking was just a generic Massive Bridge wonder, call it the worlds largest bridge or something. So it say's like "The worlds largest bridge has been constructed in new york" and give it the image of a cool looking bridge like... and have a requirement that city is near lake.

And do the same sort of thing with the operahouse... it doesn't have to be called sydney opera house, just would be cool to look like it. The operahouse should definately be a world wonder... its unique structure is just so recognisable. Ive seen a few buildings try to imitate it in some way and they all just end up looking like a piece's of crap that cost way too much to build.

There is another fairly significant operahouse in russia where alot of famous people and plays have been shown in and after wartime but i cannot remember what it is, which just goes to show that the syndey one is indeed much more memorable and recognisable.

 

[Zhahz]

Berlin Wall
Eureka technology bourse
Cern super collider
Baikonur Cosmodrome
Al-Jazeera network
Echelon surveillance system
Palatul Poporului

Only one I've heard of is Berlin Wall - and I'd hardly consider one of the biggest symbols of oppression to be worthy of being a wonder.

You, along with lots of other people worldwide, have probably heard of all of these though:

Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

I would imagine Mt Rushmore was used because out of the "monuments" of it's type because it's a bit more epic than your average monument/statue in a park somewhere.

Wonders (in civ) are wonders not only because they are amazing feats in some way, but because they are well known. They're also usually wonders because they have/had some kind of large-scale impact. For example, the statue of liberty to me is a symbol of freedom, not just an american monument.

Sydney Opera House is well known in about the same way as the Golden Gate Bridge - they are cool landmarks, but they are hardly wonders. Both are very cool, both attract tourists, both are nice architecturally, but neither has any significant impact on world culture or any other kind of significant impact. And neither are symbolic of other monuments you typically find in any given culture. Both are recognizable, but when you see them, do you think about anything other than the cities/countries that house them?

 

[AvianAvenger]

What about the Internation Wall of Prayer (http://internationalwallofprayer.org/) as a wonder ? Isnt it pretty significant for religions.

 

[The Conquerer22]

Just so we're on the same page, here is a list of wonders by country. Admittedly I took my best guess at some of these so not all of them are 100%correct.

US (13)
Broadway
Hollywood
Mt. Rushmore
Apollo Program
Statue of Liberty
United Nations (Headquarters in US)
Internet (Technology originally developed in US)
Pentagon
Wall Street
Rock N Roll
Hermitage
West Point
Manhattan Project

England (4)
Globe Theatre
Stonehenge
Oxford University
Scotland Yard

China (4)
Three Gorges Dam
Forbidden Palace
Dai Miao
Kong Miao
The Great Wall

France (4)
Versailles
Eiffel Tower
Notre Dame
National Epic (Icon is Arc de Triumph)


Egypt (3)
Great Lighthouse
Great Library
Pyramids

Greek (3)
Parthenon
Colossus
Oracle

India (3)
Kashi Wishwanath
Mahabodhi
Taj Mahal

Israel (2)
Temple of Solomon
Church of the Nativity
Temple of Herod

The CN Tower-Canada(the worlds tallest building(self supported)
Chichen Itza - Mayan
Hagia Sophia - Turkey
Angkor Wat - Cambodia
Red Cross - Switzerland
Hanging Gardens - Babylon
Sistine Chapel - Italy
Kremlin - Russia
Spiral Minaret - Iraq
Masjid Al-Haram - Saudi Arabia

I have left off the following wonders/projects since I didn't know where to classify them:
Space Elevator
Heroic Epic
Ironworks
Palace
SDI
Spaceship Components

So by any measure, the US has far more wonders/projects represented in the game than any other country. As I see it this has been done for several reasons. First and foremost, the Civ IV developers are mostly American, and they made a game for a primarily American market. They included so many US wonders in order to make the game more accessible to their target audience. This is why the majority of modern wonders (13 of 18, by my count) are American. But the game is still baised on present day American "culture"

 

[AvianAvenger]

but neither has any significant impact on world culture or any other kind of significant impact.

The same can be said for just about all wonders... the only thing the pyramids are good for are looking at, and storing corpses. Stonehenge didn't have an impact on anything.

I see a wonder as any construction that is highly recognisable around the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1240000/images/_1243954_riojesus150.jpg - i would also like that as a wonder... The rio de Janeiro statue of jesus

 

[lost_civantares]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1240000/images/_1243954_riojesus150.jpg - i would also like that as a wonder... The rio de Janeiro statue of jesus

And what influence does it have besides for the local population, it needs to affect the whole world.


-And say what you want but the UN is not all that well regarded in the US...

-Mt. Rushmore I agree, there is little need (and what does it have to do with war wearyness?), there are other things (such as Red Square) that would work better.

-As for the Great Wall it's been already spilled that it will be in Warlords expansion pack.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

The problem with "Sydney Opera House" is pretty simple.

"Sydney Opera House has been built in Paris."

"Oxford University has been built in Samarkand".

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Oh boy!! How will a civ benefit from the Berlin Wall?? Maybe a very sarcastic national wonder for vassal states in Warlords?!?!?
Al-Jazeera sounds nice!

Hmm, the Berlin wall would be a good national wonder to prevent conquered cities from flipping...

 

[Aquilius]

Hmm, the Berlin wall would be a good national wonder to prevent conquered cities from flipping...

IMO the Berlin Wall is too negatively affected to suit as a wonder. For your idea the Iron Curtain would probably fit for this, also.

 

[Evie]

"Oxford University has been built in Samarkand".

Ah, true. Forgot about that one.

 

[necrolyte]

This is something I've been thinking about and I wonder if anyone else feels this way. It seems like the wonders towards the end of the game are strongly biased towards the United States. Is the game biased... or have no other nations done anything of worth in the past hundred or so years?

Look at the wonders towards the end of the game:
Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

As it is, I have a little beef with Rock N' Roll and The Internet being considered wonders, as wonders were usually things you could build. I think the internet should be a technology, not a wonder. As for Rock ' Roll... I'm not sure. (But on a side note, I wish they would bring back the Great Wall as a wonder.) Well? What do you guys think? Biased or an accurate reflection of our current history?

Well, Rock n Roll is as much a British thing as an American thing. The Americans came up with the Blues, the British came up with the Beattles and Stones. Hollywood... to be honest, MOST movies come from Hollywood. Perhaps they should add Bollywood as an alternative .

The Internet and Rock and Roll being wonders reflect the modern emphasis on media empires as well as physical empires. Now one can create wonderful things that exist outside of the physical world.

 

[theimmortal1]

Guys this isn't rocket science here.


The most turns in the game occur from the 1700's on. Therefore we would go through more techs, and therefore more wonders during that period.

What country and which culture was dominant during that time?

The United States of America. Obviously many other states were important, and their importance is represented. But if you want to seriously deny that the USA is the most important state of the past 200 years, then you are in major denial.

So when you add up the most important state with the most amount of turns it equals to a lot of wonders for said state.

If the game went backwards, for example if one turn was from 2000 to 1950 then to 1900, all the way to 2800bc to 2881 bc to 2882 bc..then we would have completly different wonders. America would have one or two. And the ancient civs would have many more.

It just so happens that the majority of the game occurs when the Americans were the dominant civ. Don't hate, its just the way it is.

 

[BearMan]

I frankly don't see any bias.

...

And frankly, what more famous than the American wonders?

Guys this isn't rocket science here.

Agree, it is simply that less known "wonders" from the US is in the game and well known "wonders" from other countries have been left out, even when the choice is between similar wonders, like WestEnd, Broadway or the Sydney Opera House.
(or westpoint compared to red square).
(And since I live in a country with no famous wonder in it, I think I can make neutral judgement.)

America has been the dominate force the past couple hundred years, culturally, economically, and through brute military might.

This got notthing to do with how famous their wonders are, although it might help them getting famous.

One a side note, it is the last 100 years, not couple.
USA have only been around for 200+ years (1776), and this includes a weak civil war period (1861–1865).

People who complain about this are frankly jealous of the success of America.

I'm glad for you that you are telepathic.

 

[vsipinen]

Just so we're on the same page, here is a list of wonders by country. Admittedly I took my best guess at some of these so not all of them are 100%correct.

US (13)
Broadway
Hollywood
Mt. Rushmore
Apollo Program
Statue of Liberty
United Nations (Headquarters in US)
Internet (Technology originally developed in US)
Pentagon
Wall Street
Rock N Roll
Hermitage
West Point
Manhattan Project

I think there is an error in the above list, since ins't the Hermitage actually
in Russia ? At least I found the following text with Google:

"The State Hermitage occupies six magnificent buildings situated along the embankment of the River Neva, right in the heart of St Petersburg. The leading role in this unique architectural ensemble is played by the Winter Palace, the residence of the Russian tsars that was built to the design of Francesco Bartolomeo Rastrelli in 1754-62. This ensemble, formed in the 18th and 19th centuries, is extended by the eastern wing of the General Staff building, the Menshikov Palace and the recently constructed Repository"

Or does the Hermitage wonder in the Civ 4 mean something else ?

 

[Instant_Cereal]

One a side note, it is the last 100 years, not couple.
USA have only been around for 200+ years (1776), and this includes a weak civil war period (1861–1865).

Yes, it's more like the past 100 years. And, I wouldn't call the American Civil War "a weak civil war period". By no means was it weak at all.

 

[BearMan]

Yes, it's more like the past 100 years. And, I wouldn't call the American Civil War "a weak civil war period". By no means was it weak at all.

Agree, a bit of missunderstanding:

-> I didn't mean the war was weak, I meant that the country was weak due to the war

 

[Evie]

Weak on the international scene, to be specific.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

There should be JAPANESE wonders. Japan has some magnicifant structures.

 

[theimmortal1]

Bearman instead of using smileys as a response, how about you actually post a real response?

Which wonders should the American ones be replaced with and why? There are only a few American wonders that have an equal. But there are also wonders from other countries that could be replaced by American wonders. The Three Gorges Dam with the Hoover Dam for example.

And if you want to narrow it down to the past 100 years, then fine. That doesn't change the point. Theres a vast majority of wonders, techs and turns from the 1900 to 2050 period. America is the dominant civ. I am sorry that you have to hear that, I am sure it breaks your heart.

Which civ has been more dominant? Like I said, go ahead and try to post wonders that are more famous and have more prestige than the American wonders in the game.

The only one you posted was the Sydney Opera House. And that should be in the game.

This got notthing to do with how famous their wonders are, although it might help them getting famous.

Thats incorrect. The dynamics in real life is actually quite similar to civ4. If you have a lot of wonders, your civ is generally better. You are also mistaking wonders for architecture brilliance. You are completly forgetting about function and how famous a building is.

For example a military academy in the strongest military in the world that is ugly (not that it is) is much more of a wonder than a pretty military academy in a weak country.

Again theres only a few American wonders that have an equal in terms of function, prestige, and how famous it is. Sure there are other countries around the world that have similar buildings, but they are nowhere near as important on the world stage as their American counterparts.

You guys are just picking tall buildings out of thin air and saying they should be wonders. But if they were going to pick the most important tall building of this era, it again would be in America. It would be the World Trade Center.