futurehermit
Deity
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hereditary rule isn't necessary for whipping the capital. it is necessary for growing the capital huge and running a huge pile of specialists.
Work Boat & Flood Plain Advice Needed
- Thread starter Benford's Law
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Ultimocrat
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I very much suggest that you cottage the Flood Plains. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this city needs precisely zero farms, and will have too much food in the long run if you farm. With just a lighthouse and fishing nets, you've got 58 F in the BFC for pop 29, or 9 specialists. Farming all tiles could get you 78 F, for pop 39, but I've never gotten enough health or happiness to get a city that large -- it takes quite a bit of sacrifice to do, and probably isn't worth it.
In the early game, toggle between working the seafood+cottages for max. growth, and seafood-only for max. specialists (3 clams+2 fish+fp cottage+city = 32f with 6 tiles worked, for pop. 16 and 10 specialists!) I'd say this is what you should aim for by the early midgame.
In the early game, toggle between working the seafood+cottages for max. growth, and seafood-only for max. specialists (3 clams+2 fish+fp cottage+city = 32f with 6 tiles worked, for pop. 16 and 10 specialists!) I'd say this is what you should aim for by the early midgame.
Benford's Law
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futurehermit -
When I wrote that out in my post I was thinking out loud to myself on issues of happiness. My happy cap is only 5, so I would be bumping up against it pretty quickly and I was "envisioning" legions of troops coming to the capitol from the troop city to quell the restless folk if or when I use the whip (not experienced enough with slavery gameplay, I'm afraid).
Ultimocrat - I've never played Pericles before and I agree that he is a "specialist economy" master. Even so, you seem to be right about cottaging those flood plain tiles early for maximum gain and not sacrificing too much for 30+ population. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my 7 forest tiles. Obviously, one can come down.....but the other 6? Still working out a ton of factors in my head.....
~Benford's Law
When I wrote that out in my post I was thinking out loud to myself on issues of happiness. My happy cap is only 5, so I would be bumping up against it pretty quickly and I was "envisioning" legions of troops coming to the capitol from the troop city to quell the restless folk if or when I use the whip (not experienced enough with slavery gameplay, I'm afraid).
Ultimocrat - I've never played Pericles before and I agree that he is a "specialist economy" master. Even so, you seem to be right about cottaging those flood plain tiles early for maximum gain and not sacrificing too much for 30+ population. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my 7 forest tiles. Obviously, one can come down.....but the other 6? Still working out a ton of factors in my head.....
~Benford's Law
futurehermit
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Well, I can see how that could work in theory that you whip more constantly and use HR to manage 
but instead I would just suggest that you whip prior to HR and grow afterwards. You can grow very quickly into a very large city running many specialists and tbh I think that is the best approach here as you will be generating great people very, very quickly with caste system/pacificism/GL/NE if you're running HR to grow the city very large.
but instead I would just suggest that you whip prior to HR and grow afterwards. You can grow very quickly into a very large city running many specialists and tbh I think that is the best approach here as you will be generating great people very, very quickly with caste system/pacificism/GL/NE if you're running HR to grow the city very large.Well, I can see how that could work in theory that you whip more constantly and use HR to manage
As always I defer to FutureHermit in matters of SE. I agree whole heartedly with his tech/wonder advice. My plan hinges on early Representation from the Pyramids. With that much food available, you really really want the Mids. The globe theatre is there because you can't run HR AND Rep at the same time. With that many specialists the +3 beakers per is too big to pass up. The draw back is that you can't build oxford university there because of the two national wonder limit. But if you move your Great scientists to a cottaged city you get the oxford university bonus for them AND the towns. Plus you get to run Representation. Switching your capital to the science city and running Buearacracy makes those towns absolute power houses.
Well, some people are planning very far in advance and giving advice on wonders, economy, etc. Originally the OP wanted to know about the very early game so that's what I was thinking about. (Also, future's SE advice pretty much sums it up.)
Anyway, a few quick thoughts.
1. There is no reason to build a farm in this city. It doesn't get better than Fish as far as food resources go. You have two, plus two Crabs.
2. Fish are always a top priority for me. The only reason I would delay a boat when I start with Fish is if there are a ton of great jobs for a Worker to do. When you start with a Work Boat, you get the bonus of allowing your city to grow. A 4-pop city with 2 Fish tiles being worked is primed for whipping.
3. I would be very selective about chopping. Those forests are the only source of production for this city. Each one may be lackluster on its own, but you can stagnate the city at its happy cap and work every forest, giving you a respectable amount of production. Whipping is great in the early game, but it can't go on forever.
Rarely do I run a full-blown SE. If I were going to, maybe a farm would be in order in the late game. Personally I would focus on getting the Seafood while going for BW. Then I would head for Pottery to get a Granary up and cottage the FPs. Of course, I usually end up moving my capital after my 4th city and making the former capital into a hybrid.
Again, a pure SE might play out differently, I don't have a lot of experience there. But my feeling is that cottages have their place in ANY economy. Unless you're trying to prove a point, there's no reason to limit yourself by refusing to build cottages.
Anyway, a few quick thoughts.
1. There is no reason to build a farm in this city. It doesn't get better than Fish as far as food resources go. You have two, plus two Crabs.
2. Fish are always a top priority for me. The only reason I would delay a boat when I start with Fish is if there are a ton of great jobs for a Worker to do. When you start with a Work Boat, you get the bonus of allowing your city to grow. A 4-pop city with 2 Fish tiles being worked is primed for whipping.
3. I would be very selective about chopping. Those forests are the only source of production for this city. Each one may be lackluster on its own, but you can stagnate the city at its happy cap and work every forest, giving you a respectable amount of production. Whipping is great in the early game, but it can't go on forever.
Rarely do I run a full-blown SE. If I were going to, maybe a farm would be in order in the late game. Personally I would focus on getting the Seafood while going for BW. Then I would head for Pottery to get a Granary up and cottage the FPs. Of course, I usually end up moving my capital after my 4th city and making the former capital into a hybrid.
Again, a pure SE might play out differently, I don't have a lot of experience there. But my feeling is that cottages have their place in ANY economy. Unless you're trying to prove a point, there's no reason to limit yourself by refusing to build cottages.
Ultimocrat
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Two of the forsts are on grassland hills w/river -- they should be chopped early so the hills can be mined for nice 1/3/1 tiles. Maybe chop 3 forests later for a wonder-build, and leave 2 for +1 health and decent post-lumbermill production.
Benford's Law
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You guys may not believe this, but I still haven't even started my first turn on this particular game yet! 
(I probably shouldn't be playing Monarch, but I'm glad I chose marathon if I had to do it this way.)
The reason I haven't played yet? All this long-term planning and tech development decisions. At first glance, I was ready to take on mining and BW, but a careful look at the tech tree has forced me to reconsider. Shouldn't I make a beeline for Priesthood so I can get an early jump on Writing (for 1/2 price libraries since Pericles is creative) and Col for the Caste System? It would seem that Priesthood is the key tech to get if I don't plan to build cottages or a granary for a little while...(Priesthood is the key tech for BOTH Writing and CoL).
I'm halfway torn between Mysticism and Mining because both offer access to Masonry (for possible Pyramids/Representation)....Since the AI will probably get Buddhism, I could make a run for Polytheism (founding Hinduism as a bonus) on the way to Priesthood.
Maybe the mining/BW could wait a little bit in this case since the strong food and work boats in Athens could churn out a worker/settler for the second city in a reasonable time anyway?
I have 3 clams and 2 fish out there....so I could make multiple work boats right off the bat to follow Mysticism/Polytheism/Mining/BW...
This way, I could still save all 7 forest tiles for the moment, too....
Sound like a good approach? Just thinking of something different here.
~Benford's Law
(I probably shouldn't be playing Monarch, but I'm glad I chose marathon if I had to do it this way.)The reason I haven't played yet? All this long-term planning and tech development decisions. At first glance, I was ready to take on mining and BW, but a careful look at the tech tree has forced me to reconsider. Shouldn't I make a beeline for Priesthood so I can get an early jump on Writing (for 1/2 price libraries since Pericles is creative) and Col for the Caste System? It would seem that Priesthood is the key tech to get if I don't plan to build cottages or a granary for a little while...(Priesthood is the key tech for BOTH Writing and CoL).
I'm halfway torn between Mysticism and Mining because both offer access to Masonry (for possible Pyramids/Representation)....Since the AI will probably get Buddhism, I could make a run for Polytheism (founding Hinduism as a bonus) on the way to Priesthood.
Maybe the mining/BW could wait a little bit in this case since the strong food and work boats in Athens could churn out a worker/settler for the second city in a reasonable time anyway?
I have 3 clams and 2 fish out there....so I could make multiple work boats right off the bat to follow Mysticism/Polytheism/Mining/BW...
This way, I could still save all 7 forest tiles for the moment, too....
Sound like a good approach? Just thinking of something different here.
~Benford's Law
DigitalBoy
Emperor
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As if that weren't already the best starting spot ever, you're also philosophical and start with fishing. I'd go on discussing how amazing that start is, but the words fail me.
Benford's Law
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DigitalBoy,
Yeah, I know....It's a pretty awesome food bucket city. You'll just have to take my word for it that it was a lucky random spot that wasn't customized or "respawned".
I have no idea what lies beyond in the darkness. (Nor do I want to know right now.)
I'm just struggling with a good approach to this start and hope I don't mess it up!
~Benford's Law
EDIT - I'm pretty much going to rule out my wild idea of Mysticism --->Polytheism---->Mining---->BW
I'll try to do some final complex work boat calculations before going ahead with the general consensus of Mining--->BW for sure, though...
The reason I even considered the Hinduism race was because the food at this city is so abundant it seems I could afford a small "luxurious" sidetrack
into an early religion. However, having Athens be a certain holy city would hurt a bit in trying to produce Great Scientists and (to a lesser extent) Great Artists. Having tons of food units from multiple work boats could also effectively delay the worker/settler and not even try to chop rush.
If anyone thinks my early Hinduism race is a rotten idea feel free to tell me! I have a thick skin and I'm not easily offended...
Yeah, I know....It's a pretty awesome food bucket city. You'll just have to take my word for it that it was a lucky random spot that wasn't customized or "respawned".
I have no idea what lies beyond in the darkness. (Nor do I want to know right now.)
I'm just struggling with a good approach to this start and hope I don't mess it up!
~Benford's Law
EDIT - I'm pretty much going to rule out my wild idea of Mysticism --->Polytheism---->Mining---->BW
I'll try to do some final complex work boat calculations before going ahead with the general consensus of Mining--->BW for sure, though...
The reason I even considered the Hinduism race was because the food at this city is so abundant it seems I could afford a small "luxurious" sidetrack
into an early religion. However, having Athens be a certain holy city would hurt a bit in trying to produce Great Scientists and (to a lesser extent) Great Artists. Having tons of food units from multiple work boats could also effectively delay the worker/settler and not even try to chop rush.
If anyone thinks my early Hinduism race is a rotten idea feel free to tell me! I have a thick skin and I'm not easily offended...
stormyorky
Chieftain
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My advice is to start with work boat. It will let the city grow. In fact I think growing the city to happy cap (u could have time for 2 workboats in that time I think) could be a wise choice.
At happy cap (5) you can build worker, settler, worker, settler, worker, settler...
until you get bw, then u chop a settler so u get down to size 3, and switch to building some military units til happy cap again.
Imagine how fast this city can produce workers and settlers. U will be able to rex so fast.
At happy cap (5) you can build worker, settler, worker, settler, worker, settler...
until you get bw, then u chop a settler so u get down to size 3, and switch to building some military units til happy cap again.
Imagine how fast this city can produce workers and settlers. U will be able to rex so fast.
I say tech to BW while building 2workboats then a warrior. The start a settler and whip him when able. Go settle a city while you tech some things for the worker to do and avoid chopping those forests. Whip for production. people grow back way faster than trees. Use all that food to build settlers since your lack of hammers isn't hurting settler/worker production. I would start mining and farming the second city so it can start the Mids. You can whip military from the capital for defense or build them in another city if you find two site with good production.
But honestly, if you are still figuring out the kinks to BtS and Monarch level...shelve this game and try a few others to get more familiar with it.
Benford's Law
Warlord
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@InFlux5 and Ultimocrat - Your observations are very sound and I agree with not farming anything and letting cottages form along the flood plains. Just as Ultimocrat did, I carefully counted out all the food in the BFC and adjusted to the lighthouse and fishing bonuses. Farming anything here would indeed appear counterproductive. I'm not trying to prove anything about running a SE so a hybrid economy is just fine with me. I will also be very careful about cutting those trees down (3-5 tiles max until lumber mill) Thanks for your input!
@CivCorpse - I agree that Monarch difficulty will be a challenge for me because I've never won at this level before....And, I just got the BtS pack (v3.13 patched on after it was bought) a few days ago, to boot. I've always considered the first turn to be among the most critical of the game, because it can require both long-term and short-term planning to set a proper foundation for a good game even though the actual information I have of my situation compared to the whole world is extremely limited at the start.
I sort of have to "think backwards" from how I want to win a game, down to the wonder types that appeal to my leader's traits, all the way down to how it synergizes with my pre-historic starting location.
Obviously, just about everyone has given some great, professional advice on this thread....and I was thinking a bit "outside the box" when I considered an early religion. It doesn't seem very useful to me now, anyway, since I would be more interested in a flexible springboard position for an eventual space race or cultural victory (most culture gleaned from GA's and GS's and their wonder types instead of religion in this case, apparently).
If this game gets too overwhelming for me, I'll humbly step down to a lower difficulty setting and a different game (though, the marathon speed and this great starting spot emboldens me to try this game out).
~Benford's Law
@CivCorpse - I agree that Monarch difficulty will be a challenge for me because I've never won at this level before....And, I just got the BtS pack (v3.13 patched on after it was bought) a few days ago, to boot. I've always considered the first turn to be among the most critical of the game, because it can require both long-term and short-term planning to set a proper foundation for a good game even though the actual information I have of my situation compared to the whole world is extremely limited at the start.
I sort of have to "think backwards" from how I want to win a game, down to the wonder types that appeal to my leader's traits, all the way down to how it synergizes with my pre-historic starting location.
Obviously, just about everyone has given some great, professional advice on this thread....and I was thinking a bit "outside the box" when I considered an early religion. It doesn't seem very useful to me now, anyway, since I would be more interested in a flexible springboard position for an eventual space race or cultural victory (most culture gleaned from GA's and GS's and their wonder types instead of religion in this case, apparently).
If this game gets too overwhelming for me, I'll humbly step down to a lower difficulty setting and a different game (though, the marathon speed and this great starting spot emboldens me to try this game out).
~Benford's Law
stormyorky
Chieftain
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i wrote chop in my previous post but meant whip. yeah, 2 workboats then a warrior so u get happycap 5. after warrior is out, u should be at happy cap.
then settler, whip it as soon as u can, then another warrior(s) til u are size 4, then worker. by that time u have sufficient worker techs i think.
then settler, whip it as soon as u can, then another warrior(s) til u are size 4, then worker. by that time u have sufficient worker techs i think.
JBossch
King
with all that seafood I agree that the floodplains can be cottaged while still running a primarily specialist-based economy. I think futurehermit recommended HR to deal with happy cap but how many freakin' archers are you gonna be able to spare? Unless you get mids or use HR+butt loads of units that could be better used in war I think you will simply have too much food until Globe theater.
Benford's Law
Warlord
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My biggest problem was not so much deciding what to build, but which techs to pursue early on. After much internal debate over whether to take a big chance on Mysticism/Polytheism....I am going ahead with mining/BW.
I want to eventually have plenty of flexibility for a cultural or space race victory, but I think I will be just fine not worrying about founding an early religion since there will be so many options later in the cultural area, anyway....
THE BEAUTIES OF SIMPLE, BASIC MICROMANAGEMENT
EDIT - This is incorrect, sorry...see last sentence...
(Inaccurate analysis removed!)
Thanks to everyone for your strategy discussion!
EDIT- Oops, my mistake! Now I see that if I do work the clam square I'm still producing 1 extra hammer per turn in the capitol for 12 turns, anyway. So, I guess I'll have to scratch that flood plain idea and re-look at this....
~Benford's Law
I want to eventually have plenty of flexibility for a cultural or space race victory, but I think I will be just fine not worrying about founding an early religion since there will be so many options later in the cultural area, anyway....
THE BEAUTIES OF SIMPLE, BASIC MICROMANAGEMENT
EDIT - This is incorrect, sorry...see last sentence...
(Inaccurate analysis removed!)
Thanks to everyone for your strategy discussion!
EDIT- Oops, my mistake! Now I see that if I do work the clam square I'm still producing 1 extra hammer per turn in the capitol for 12 turns, anyway. So, I guess I'll have to scratch that flood plain idea and re-look at this....
~Benford's Law
Benford's Law
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DaveMcW and anyone else...,
I don't know if anyone has bothered to download and play out my 4000BC save or not, so I can't say anything further without a bit of a spoiler:
~Benford's Law
I don't know if anyone has bothered to download and play out my 4000BC save or not, so I can't say anything further without a bit of a spoiler:
Spoiler :
~Benford's Law
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