Workshops before guilds

[Scaramanga]

Is there any point to building workshops before getting the +1 hammer from guilds? The negative one food and plus only one hammer doesn't seem worth it. Is there ever a situation where they would be used? Is on a flood plain the only reasonable place for them at this time?

 

[Defiant47]

I've always found workshops utterly useless, and never bothered to build any of them. Only once you get chemistry, can they barely scratch a possibility to become useless with a +2 F/H bonus, but it's still not enough. By that time you can build a watermill that gives a +2 bonus and some commerce, a cottage to increase your commerce and you focus your F/H improvements somewhere else, or you're getting close to a farm being a +2F/H bonus.

Only with state property can they be glorified* with a deadly +3 F/H bonus. However, the state property's short-lived future (due to UN) suggests you might not want to build food that will soon disappear.

* - the only times I've heard this word said is when people talk about Jesus... I'm not even sure I used it correctly

 

[nullspace]

Workshops exist to boost production for hammer-specialized cities. If you have a city with the heroic epic and some military advisers, you want it to produce as many hammers as possible, but you don't really care how much commerce or GPP it makes. That's a good place to use workshops.

But before chemistry, workshops are pretty weak. Mines, slavery, engineers, watermills, and windmills are generally better ways to get more hammers. Workshops are only useful if a city has too much food and you don't want to use slavery.

After chemistry, workshops are -1 food and +3 hammers, so a workshop on flat ground produces exactly the same as a mine on a hill. That's when they become worthwhile.

 

[Mango]

If you need workshops you did not build your production city in the right spot. Production cities need lots of hills and hopefully at least one metal. To work those mines you need farms and food resources. A workshop before guilds is utterly useless in this sense, and even after guilds they aren't that great.

Build workshops in preparation for your space race victory once you near finishing your research. Then you bulldoze those cottages (I know, it sucks) and gear up to build those SS parts. Other than that I never even consider building them.

 

[bonafide11]

There really isn't a point to build workshops before guilds, but that doesn't mean that workshops are worthless like these other people are saying. Workshops are the key to military economies later in the game. When I take new cities, the land is usually pillaged so I have to improve it again. Instead of building the cottages that will take forever to develop at this point, I build workshops and turn the city into an instant production city.

State property, with the +1 food, helps this even more. And someone said that state property goes obsolete with the UN? Only if you allow it too. You should try to win before the UN is built, or at least make sure you control the UN.

 

[Donny]

The only time I used workshops somehow usefull, was when boosting my production on an archipelago map. Coast and see-resource squares give alot of food but no production and there are almost no rivers. In that situation I think it would be a good idea to build workshops on the not forested tiles, however, whipping might be better now I think about it.

But in most cases, workhops are useless. Some ideas to improve them: (not thought through well)

* Let them give production over time, like cottages do with commerce, instead of the boosts from techs. But adjust the amount of production and turns of course.
* Give them a small % chance of finding a metal, like mines. And when a metal is found the workshop instantly turnes into a mine.
* Let them give a slight(+1) commerce boost to compete with farms and cottages. Lumbermills and watermills should always be a bit better i think, lumbermills as a bonus for leaving the forest, and watermills because they can only be built next to a river. It would make sense that workshops bring commerce to a city.

These are just the first things that come to mind, also note that I didn't mean to give them all bonusses together.

 

[Scaramanga]

* Let them give production over time, like cottages do with commerce, instead of the boosts from techs. But adjust the amount of production and turns of course.

Hey yeah! I was thinking about this at one time or another too; it would be a cool implementation. The only thing is what would they evolve into? Factories/mills? Those should probably be restricted until industrial age - so in a way the technology restraints make sense.

So in short, building workshops right after researching metal casting is never called for?

 

[None_Existant]

* Let them give production over time, like cottages do with commerce, instead of the boosts from techs. But adjust the amount of production and turns of course.
* Give them a small % chance of finding a metal, like mines. And when a metal is found the workshop instantly turnes into a mine.
* Let them give a slight(+1) commerce boost to compete with farms and cottages. Lumbermills and watermills should always be a bit better i think, lumbermills as a bonus for leaving the forest, and watermills because they can only be built next to a river. It would make sense that workshops bring commerce to a city.

*That would make workshops superior to mined hills. That literally obseletes a terrain type.
*Also flawed, enabling you to find metals on grassland/plains without the map generator giving it to you. That would enable large amouts of hammer oh traditional food tiles. I think you can build workshops on floodplains too. Overpowered.
*Commerce? Hmm...thats not to bad. Probably still some balance issues concerning watermills and cottages, but not as obviously distabalizing from the others.

 

[Donny]

*That would make workshops superior to mined hills. That literally obseletes a terrain type.
*Also flawed, enabling you to find metals on grassland/plains without the map generator giving it to you. That would enable large amouts of hammer oh traditional food tiles. I think you can build workshops on floodplains too. Overpowered.
*Commerce? Hmm...thats not to bad. Probably still some balance issues concerning watermills and cottages, but not as obviously distabalizing from the others.

Yeah, some ideas may be a bit far fetched, but let me defend them:

* Did you read the part about adjusting the production and turns? I was thinking about something like every 100 (or more) turns a +1 production bonus up to +3, and keep the -1 food. So it would actually only be a bit better than workshops now, but with the big difference being that you actually have to build them in the beginning.
* I dont't think this would be unbalanced. In a full game where every hill tile is mined, how many metals pop up on average? Almost all hills are mined but workhops will never be that comon so it wouldn't be like metals will be popping up all over the place.
I think you can allready get some combinations with the current mining system that you cant get from the map generator, and most metals can allready exist on grassland and plains, so it wouldn't be a very big change.
But you do have a point concerning flood plains and building on existing resources, which shouldn't be allowed then.
It would also add a bit more strategic depth because you could actually do something about having no metals in your territory, but then again you do need alot of luck.
* It's the least original one but hey, I'm glad you thought this one was OK

 

[Multiplicity]

It all depends on the situation and the sort of tiles are around a production city. If you want to maximize production, then a few workshops may be ideal. State Property makes it a lot worthwhile since it negates the -1F penalty and by the time you get it, workshops contribute a lot to production. I don't think State Property is shortlived as I have gone through to the end of my games without the UN being a bother. However, I do tend to build (or try to) the UN and when I run the UN, I always avoid having to vote on civics I don't want. Works wonders.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Workshops are entirely situational. I don't usually use them, but in cities that are desperate for any hammer producing tiles (coastal city with nothing but grasslands in its fat cross), then yes they are useful.

 

[bardolph]

Use workshops to convert food to hammers when you want to freeze the growth of a city, either because:

1) The next growth point will give you unhappy/unhealthy citizens, or
2) The next growth point will make your city starve.

It's good to have 1 workshop in the tile radius of every city, so you can perform this kind of population micromanagement. That is, unless your city has no happiness/health issues and you need every pop point you can get...

 

[anima36]

its not to hard to stop the UN interferring if you are doing well just make sure you are head if not try to persuade the head of the UN to take up state property then he will not propose te resolution

 

[None_Existant]

Yeah, some ideas may be a bit far fetched, but let me defend them:

* Did you read the part about adjusting the production and turns? I was thinking about something like every 100 (or more) turns a +1 production bonus up to +3, and keep the -1 food. So it would actually only be a bit better than workshops now, but with the big difference being that you actually have to build them in the beginning.
* I dont't think this would be unbalanced. In a full game where every hill tile is mined, how many metals pop up on average? Almost all hills are mined but workhops will never be that comon so it wouldn't be like metals will be popping up all over the place.
I think you can allready get some combinations with the current mining system that you cant get from the map generator, and most metals can allready exist on grassland and plains, so it wouldn't be a very big change.
But you do have a point concerning flood plains and building on existing resources, which shouldn't be allowed then.
It would also add a bit more strategic depth because you could actually do something about having no metals in your territory, but then again you do need alot of luck.
* It's the least original one but hey, I'm glad you thought this one was OK

*Well you were comparing them to cottages. I kinda thought that you were comparing the turn amount too. Also you have to think that certain techs increase the hammer amount and state property negates the - Also if implemented, it would be fastly overpowered as bonuses from technology stack with it. (sure you might have forgot, but you ddin't mention that )
*Yes, but that would enable every tile to be either workshoped or mined (besides peaks and ice) and that would lead to more dice rolls for the game. Indeed it might be possible to build a metal empire with only workshops and mines. Anyway, if what you said (first point) was implemented, the use of workshops would - should - soar. Anyhow, if you're civ has no metals. A. Reroll the map. B. Import them. C. Build a mine on a hill.

* Heh..there were 3 * in all the other posts....

 

[br_casino]

Use workshops to convert food to hammers when you want to freeze the growth of a city, either because:

1) The next growth point will give you unhappy/unhealthy citizens, or
2) The next growth point will make your city starve.

It's good to have 1 workshop in the tile radius of every city, so you can perform this kind of population micromanagement. That is, unless your city has no happiness/health issues and you need every pop point you can get...

Um, there is a button in the city screen that will prevent your city from growing to the next level. Your city will accumulate food until it is at 1 turn left and will stop.

 

[CivDude86]

And let all that extra food go to waste, there are starving people in that country you just conquered.

 

[mnf]

Um, there is a button in the city screen that will prevent your city from growing to the next level. Your city will accumulate food until it is at 1 turn left and will stop.

I used to use this, but this is actually a last resort and best not used, because all your surplus food are simply thrown away and you are wasting your citizen's hard work.

On the other hand, re-arranging your citizens so that not only are you not loosing food (the surplus are thrown away anyway) but you are also gaining hammers, is always a better idea.

It is extra management which should have been taken care of by the city governor, though, I think.

 

[Yeekim]

I advocate, that workshops and mines should be a bit diversified - to make the game more interesting.
I propose, that city should get a bonus hammers (10%? 15%?) for building military units, if it has at least certain number of workshops in its fat cross (4? 6?).

If it has at least 4-6 mines, it should get the same bonus production for constructing buildings.

So you could create wonder-building and troop-building cities

Whaddaya think?

 

[br_casino]

And let all that extra food go to waste, there are starving people in that country you just conquered.

Bah! I spoil them enough.

 

[Donny]

*Well you were comparing them to cottages. I kinda thought that you were comparing the turn amount too. Also you have to think that certain techs increase the hammer amount and state property negates the - Also if implemented, it would be fastly overpowered as bonuses from technology stack with it. (sure you might have forgot, but you ddin't mention that )
*Yes, but that would enable every tile to be either workshoped or mined (besides peaks and ice) and that would lead to more dice rolls for the game. Indeed it might be possible to build a metal empire with only workshops and mines. Anyway, if what you said (first point) was implemented, the use of workshops would - should - soar. Anyhow, if you're civ has no metals. A. Reroll the map. B. Import them. C. Build a mine on a hill.

* Heh..there were 3 * in all the other posts....

* Well ok, but this is just tweaking the idea, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to balance it out. Also, it doesn't really matter but I did mention it in my first post (I said "instead of the boosts from techs")
* Nobody would ever only build workshops, as you still need food for population and commerce for research. Even production cities will always need farms, so I think making workshops pretty strong is justified. Even if every tile from non-commerce cities and not needed to farm is a workshop, there still wouldn't be *so* much around (not that I want it that way) . edit: yeah ok, you can always restart, but I don't consider that as a strategy

I understand that lots of people probably post these kind of things here. (hey, if we just change this, everything will be ok!) But if you give me a good reason why these solutions suck, I'll leave it be