World History Mod development thread

Gooblah- thank you, and I hope you'll stick around to the end :) It's taking ages and ages just to type up all the information, this civ list of mine is a leviathon and admittedly this will be a very long project... but I guess if anyone is persistent enough to do it it's me.

I will, of course! :goodjob:

~~~
I will be going on a cruise starting this Sat. and I'll be back 8 days later. EDIT: I'll update the new civic info once I'm back


Have fun!
I have done MASSIVE updates to civ information (CivJunction forum). You can ignore most of the Preferred Civics: these aren't right now actual civics but rather tendancies that will later help me to pick the real preferred civics. That's why I only have repetitions/variations of the same 4 civic names (centralization or decentralization, mercantillism or free trade, aristocracy or plutocracy, serfdom or free subjects)


What are the preferred civics? Are they highlighted and I'm just missing them?

And Gooblah, good job, and if you're ever too busy for full civics, I would be more than happy with mere civic names. Just as long as I soon have civic names for each of the categories we should be fine and able to continue with civs (not that I don't like and greatly appreciate more :P)

Thanks. I should be able to post somemore today once I finish this load of stuff I have to do. I'll get in touch with my sister (who's an economist) and see if she can help...
ps. I read Guns, Germs and Steel (or whatever its called) and I'm reading Collapse now

Yay! GGS is amazing, it's being used as a textbook in schools like MIT and Harvard. I haven't read Collapse, though I've heard mixed reviews about it.

Also, I was having way too many problems (files going missing...) and reinstalled Civ4, and now it won't even run. So yeah. I hope I can fix this before I get a new computer half a year or one and a half years from now.

Kevin

That sucks...:( I suggest that if you can't get it to work try a System Restore. Back up essential files to IDrive or a similar internet backup service (you have to pay a fee, but it's worth it, I assure you), then restore them once the SR is through.
 
I've been away for a bit so I haven't been able to update my civ list, but I'll try to get some work on it done before 2029 :p
No problem, I plan to stick around till this is done, (as long as it is done before Obama's first term) then I'll reinstall civilization on my comp and play it :) So keep up the goooooooooodddddddddddddwwwwwwoooooorrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. :goodjob:

Now, now the reply to Ideologies, I would post it in CivJ but... What the hack? ... hmmm I think I'll post it there too :p Here there will be more people to give their opinions on the subject since there's so little traffic in the main forums :(
Ideologies, the way I see it is that they spread almost the same as a religion would
First the bearer of that ideology would approach another and attempt to convert them to that ideology, if successful that leader would go on to convert the people to that ideology, however, even if the masses of people refuse it the government will still be whatever that ideology the leader converted to.

In my suggestion of Ideologies in the game:
Ideologies can be founded more then once by different civilizations.
Like in the US, it's government is capitalist, but communism founded itself there back in the 1900s, and was fed by soviet communism, but eventually it was crushed by the capitalist government, in this case I see it happening like this: America researched communism, which founded itself in the nation, which then the Union sent 'covet' advocates to fuel the ideology, but because America loves capitalism, they sent 'care takers' to abolish the communist ideas in America.
With the spreading around the world, I see it going something like this, communism was founded in Russia, and maybe other European countries around the same time, and quickly adopted by Russia into a Communist society, from there it spread throughout Europe and in many cases adopted by the countries, in many cases influenced by Russian politics, and from there it past through to their colonies around the world, like Angola and Hong Kong. Every where communism went Russia was likely close behind, any country that had not seen communism in their lands, that Russia had interest in, Russia would send advocates to convince them, with both the laying out of such ideologies and by political pressure. Capitalism took the same route, pushed by America and their allies to counter their fear of communism. These ideologies clashed, wherever communism and capitalism spread together blood was spilled, even when only one spread to a region, the nations standing ideology would clashed with the new idea. Nations like Vietnam where communism and capitalism was spread by both the Union and the States, a war broke out between the capitalist and communist, the government picked communism but extremist backed by the States fought for capitalism, the nation was in war till communism was crushed.
But in my eyes, this follows the path of religions and how they spread, and the wars that followed them. In Kongo, Portugal converted the King to Christianity, this was done through politics, but the people stayed with their own belief and their own religion, in my opinion, this would be how ideologies spread, in Angola, the government took communism but capitalism was also there. This is all just my opinion, though, so...



@Gooblah: I can't see why the Barter System would cause unhappiness, I'm thinking a totally different effect for the Barter System. IMO. But good job :)

@Religions: I can't take a vote. I don't want to go back into all of it, and maybe A would be better in-game. :)


@Mongolia/Kevinman: Are you really going to have Mongolia and the Golden Horde as separate civilizations?

Kevinman: I see you updated the civ list a bit. Which I think I'll post a reply to on the Civ Junction forum later, but... Just my two cents on two things that caught my eye, first: Ethiopia, I don't see how one of their preferred religions could be Muslim when they fought wars to keep Islam from taking over when the Kingdoms around them were converting. That is really, In my opinion, a slap in the face to the brave warriors that died to keep Ethiopia true to it's OWN religion. Second, again there is a difference in Arabian Egypt and the Kingdom of Egypt, I mean, yes I know that the Egyptians didn't have precisely the same culture of southern Africa, but... well... They weren't Muslims... And I would think that their Government type would be, I don't know, dynastic rule... :D
. .
Well, on Emissaries, in civ rev units can go through boarders without making contact. Contact is made when the unit sees another unit or city and then the unit is kicked out of the civs boarders, don't know if this will help any...
However, I don't know how the right-clicking(or whatever) sending emissaries would work.. .And I don't know of any modcomps or mods that do this, sorry :( And again I know I should have posted this in CivJ but, oh well.......
. .
And I have a UP for America and Mongolia, what do you think?. .
Mongolia - Up: Power of the Horde > All mounted units come 25% faster and start with two exp point.. .
. .
USA - UP: Patriotism > -25% Unhappiness from all forced government actions. (Such as rush buying, wars, etc...)



Anyways, keep the good work up after you come back from your trip.
 
I had to think of a negative effect for the Barter System that would encourage them to leave it. Maybe...oh...I dunno..

+1% inflation every 100 years per population point?

That would be great for smaller civilizations, but as the civilization gets larger, it gets extremely weak.

Edit: Looking through the civics...

Seems a bit...intense, Kevin. While it's great to customize the Civilization, a lot of these should be determined by player action...not the other way around. For example, International Relations, Terrorism, Health Care, Crime Fighting, etc. are all part of player decisions, not Civics. Some, such as Internal Divisions, Immigration, Aboriginal Affairs, etc seem more directed towards the Civilization, or just unfeasible.

I say keep Currency, Social Policy, Economic, Legal, Suffrage, Executive, Religious, and Military, with Education and Environmental as backups.

Edit 2: This is more from a gameplay perspective IMO. I know I'll get confused juggling around a dozen civic categories...just me though.
 
LEGAL CIVICS*:
• Barbarism (no upkeep): No effect.
• Vassalage (low upkeep): +1 :) per vassal; +25% Worker speed
• Divine Law (high upkeep): Requires State Religion; +1 :mad: per non-state religion in city; + 10% commerce in all cities with state religion
• Common Law (medium upkeep): -25% building time for city improvements, + 1 :mad: per city
• Martial Law (low upkeep): +10% chance of revolt every turn in city; +1 :) per military unit; +25% unit production

Here ya go..;)
 
Mind if I step in Gooblah?

Military Civics:
-Ad Hoc (low): no bonus
-City Militia (high): +1 :) per unit stationed in a city, free Garrison 1 promotion
-Feudalism (medium): can draft X unit per turn, +10% unit production, +1 XP for mounted units
-Conscription (medium): can draft 2X unit per turn, +25% unit production
-Voluntary Service (high): -10% unit production, +2XP for all units

Education/Health Care Civics (should be combined IMO):
-None (low): no bonus
-Religious (low): +1 :health: per monastery, +1 :science: per 'cathedral'
-Private (low): +1 :gold: per hospital, +1 :gold: per university
-Subsidised (medium): +1 :health: per hospital, +1 :science: per university
-Universal (high): +2 :health: per city, +2 :science: per city
 
Hey, just letting you know I'm back, and I'll make some updates later tonight. I'll let you know my thoughts on everything ASAP.

@Gooblah- I see your point about civics being very linked to player actions. However, I suppose this would let me fine-tune the AI's behaviour a little. I would really like the distinctions, for example, in a public health care and private health care system. You cannot determine stuff like that by player actions- both are valid health care systems but both have very different effects. Internal divisions will stay, and the effect will be similar to its effect in EU3 (which is a good game, and decided to use that as a sort of civic). However, a lot of them are likely not that feasible or useful, and I'm sure I can cut it down somewhat. I'll let you know what Collapse is like, once I read it.

@Grishnash- I was going to say civics are almost never on a city level, but obviously Vietnam and Germany are crushing examples of why I'm wrong. I suppose a religion-like system will work.

I don't know yet whether Mongolia and Goldern Horde will be seperate. On the one hand, I know the different hordes were all numerous seperate entities, however I also believe that there is a different Mongolia at different times posing a huge threat to China. I currently have no clue what to do with these two civs and I'll have to look into it/hear some opinions, including yours.
 
Civics updated- thank you Gooblah and ETM

my main goal right now is going to be to get civ4 working again for me

edit: but also of course to finish civics

edit: although i have appropriate restore points, any attempts at a system restore fail. My final option is to do a massive cleanup of my computer, do some fresh installs

~~~

EDIT: Production suspended until after auditions at end of Feb. After that I will try as hard as I can to get civ4 working, then continue progress.

However, I still encourage work on the ideas/information front, and I am also working on the gamefont files for the different religions and resources.

EDIT: I have come a lot closer to completing the Asian civ list. But, I need some opinions on the inclusion of dynasties. As I see it so far, they are pretty much seperate kingdoms/empires, and I have included them all. However, some, especially with the Arabs, I don't know what I should do with, and I currently have considerably more civs than I have leaderheads for (for Asia and MIddle East)

Kevin
 
"It's not what you learn... It's how you apply it." - Unknown.
 
Political Divisions:

City-State : Cities mostly independent from political capital
Confederation : Powerful States with borders governed by a weak Central Government
Vassalage : Governance through social hierarchy, no states.
Federation: Power is shared between central and state governments
Unitary : Central Government is supreme
 
Military:

Contract - Mercenaries
Fealty - Allegiance of protection
Conscription - Forced enlistment
Volunteer - Volunteer enlistment
Demilitarization - Pacifism/No Military
 
Legal

*No Barbarism because without laws then what purpose could government possible serve without them? Even an act of force by government (martial law) is a sort of law...

Customary : Laws formed through customs
Religious : Laws are drawn from religious texts
Civil : Codified and unalterable by stare decisis...written by a legislative assembly
Common : Uncodified and altered by stare decisis through court decisions...also written by a legislative assembly
Martial : Unwritten law enacted through force and coercion
 
Legal

*No Barbarism because without laws then what purpose could government possible serve without them? Even an act of force by government (martial law) is a sort of law...

Customary : Laws formed through customs
Religious : Laws are drawn from religious texts
Civil : Codified and unalterable by stare decisis...written by a legislative assembly
Common : Uncodified and altered by stare decisis through court decisions...also written by a legislative assembly
Martial : Unwritten law enacted through force and coercion

Hmm, shouldn't the Legal field represent the current 'Law of the Land' and what rights they extends to the common citizen etc. - rather than determine what the legislative source behind them is? Because, surely the 'Law of the Land' is mostly determined by the Governing force of the land.

Ie. then Barbarism - from this perspective - would be a 'Might is Right' law that allows those who can to do what they want with very few (if any) restrictions ... other than those enforced by the whim of those who is stronger.
 
Hmm, shouldn't the Legal field represent the current 'Law of the Land' and what rights they extends to the common citizen etc. - rather than determine what the legislative source behind them is? Because, surely the 'Law of the Land' is mostly determined by the Governing force of the land.

Ie. then Barbarism - from this perspective - would be a 'Might is Right' law that allows those who can to do what they want with very few (if any) restrictions ... other than those enforced by the whim of those who is stronger.

This is the difficult thing, isn't it? The question that we must confront is, are there any other possible branches of government? Or are am I, the player, simply an autocrat? This is what I am attempting to resolve right now, and I don't rather like what I wrote so far about the legal civics. I would have to agree with your points though. I am continuing my work on civics as I type!
 
I suppose if you wanted to emulate true Division of Power you would need 3 seperate civic lines - one for each of Executive, Legislative and Judicial power.

But I seriously doubt that it would be possible to make such a setup work very convincingly - within the current confines of the cIV mechanisms at least. ;)
 
Thank you Generalspecific! Glad to see you

I've edited in the civic names you added/changed. I still have some old civics I am unsure of whether to keep/delete.

Here is a current list of civic list needs/questions:

Should Caste System and Stratification be seperate or merged (and under what name)?
Should Divine Law be merged under Customary Law or be left seperate?
Should Serfdom and Feudalism be merged?
Should I account for military education in the health/education category?
I also need names badly for immigration civics, mine are pretty terrible

The thing I need most now for civics is: Right now I have Suffrage and Executive civics to represent basic types of government. However, this system is not working well; I need to somehow be able to account for all major types of government ie

Tribal Democracy
Tribal Federation
Tribal Despotism?
Feudal Monarchy
Despotic Monarchy
Absolute Monarchy
Enlightened Despotism
Democratic Republic
Noble Republic
One-Party State
Constitutional Republic
Constitutional Monarchy

and I'm missing many more important ones but oh well

One way we could do it is again have two civic categories like I previously did but I have to be able to account for all government types and I've had no luck with that so far

ie on one side the adjectives

Democracy (democratic)
Despotism (despotic)
Absolute/Enlightened
Feudal
Noble
Constitutional
Socialist

and the other has government types

Tribalism (chiefdom)
Monarchy
Republic

ETC

The problems with this are that this is just a compilation of adjectives and governments, and I need headers for them (ie suffrage, executive). The other problem is that some do not match ie Democratic Monarchy, Socialist Monarchy, etc and I don't want the player to be able to pick both

I am in dire need of some ideas on how to represent different government types


I am now done auditions and civ4 is now running, though my mod specifically is still having interface problems.

Finally, there is a new field that must be used when giving civ information.

There is now Tech Group, Unit Art Group and City Art Group. The new category, Unit Art Group, has choices which are listed on the civjunction WHM civ thread, near the top. This is based on the unit graphics that are available to me via download on this site. Choose the closest representation.

Kevin
 
Something you could do is to embed traits in the civic ie under monarchy you may be able to chose the traits feudal monarchy, despotic monarchy, absolute monarchy or constitutional monarchy.
In fact, I think there is already a mod for dynamic traits from TheLopez.
You can make these civic traits have multiple prerequired civic so you can achieve something like EU3 national ideas while keeping the civics relatively short & understandable.
 
Kev,

My problem with including socialism, capitalism, feudalism, etc, as civics is because they are really a series of individual civics being enacted to create the overall philosophy of government...

Example:

Socialism is a theory that deals with economics and governance. It does not specify the structure of the regime ( ie, rule by the many, the few, or the one), but rather the ownership of property, the labor system, and the legitamacy of the government...
So, to make proper civic categories to formulate the Socialism ideology, we would have to have at least 3 civic categories (the other civic categories, which are not essential to establishing a socialist system, merely define what particulare kind of socialism is present; these three civics are the bare minimum for having actual socialism)

Suffrage- How the government is chosen...
Despotism (by force)
Hereditary (by family)
Divine (By God)
Representative (By representatives)
Popular (by the majority of the people, not necessarily democracy, since suffrage is not sovereignty)

Property- who may own
Private (individual)
Restricted (restricted individual ownership, ie, only so much land per person)
Primogeniture (all property of a deceased landholder must pass intact to his eldest son)
Common (owned by the people)
State (owned by the state, this civic should enable the player to nationalize certain corporations, businesses, and industries)

Labor - why we work
Slavery (we are forced)
Caste (we are chosen)
Serfdom (we must sustain)
Wage (we chose to)
Egalitarian (we are equal)

A true socialist system is chosen popularly with an egalitarian labor system and all property being owned by the state...anything besides this is unsocialist. Other civics, however, may be used in conjunction with these choices to make a particular brand of socialism. If we choose the Democracy civic, under the Sovereignty category, along with these other choices, then we have a Social Democracy. Also notice that I do not consider the direct election of officials to be democracy, rather, I consider democracy to be a system of rule, not legitamacy; more importantly, it is a system of direct self-rule. In which case, I consider the United states to be a constitutional oligarchy with popular suffrage (a republic!). If we add state property, an egalitarian labor system, popular suffrage, and a sovereign oligarchy together, we have a Socialist Republic!

I am still working on other categories, I hope we can eventually replace the 7 civic system with a 5 civic system per category. It seems like I overthought some things like social and executive civics.

National Socialism (Fascism) is a hybrid system that looks like socialism but isn't. It also requires a Sovereignty civic to be fully functional. Civics required: Suffrage (popular, since fascism is a populist movement), Property (national, since the government is responsible for economic planning), Labor (caste, since division of labor is based upon a system of hierarchal classes), Sovereignty (Autocracy, since rule by one is the heart and soul of national socialism).

Note: Socialism and Fascism are just examples to better explain why specific ideologies aren't civics themselves...

Civic Categories that I am Currently Working On:

Property
Labor
Suffrage
Sovereignty (Only 3 here; monarchy, oligarchy, democracy)
Legal
Military
Political Divisions
Monetary
Trade
Taxation
Constitution(?)
 
Sorry for the double post...but this is a seperate thought.

I just realized that a lot of your thoughts are coming from EU3. If that is the case, then I assure you the civic system that I am working on will deliver similar governments. Also, I hope that if we include a national bank system, that it won't cause deflation as in EU3; this never actually happens! Since America adopted the Federal Reserve system, the dollar has lost 96% of its value! National banking, through credit creation, always (production remaining constant) causes inflation. On this note, I am trying to come up with an economics system, although it may never see fruition...but I am still going to see what I can come up with.
 
Its a bit OT but just to get the info out and feedback in; I've pretty much pinned down the techs as I would do them (haven't got a complete tree yet but getting close). The list stands at 180 techs (about twice the number in vanilla BtS) and their pretty evenly spread over 6 periods ancient, classical, medieval, enlightenment, industrial, atomic; although the last two are a little heavier.

Spoiler :
Ancient/Classical


Medieval/Englightenment


Industial/Atomic


Feedback welcome as always
 
@snipperrabbit- omg this sounds awesome, I didn't know that was even possible... I'll check it out, and we (me generalspecific and anyone with an opinion on the civics system) can decide what will be the easiest and best way of doing this

@generalspecific- sounds great! As long as we can account for everything I am happy. And it sounds like you are doing a fantastic job of coming up with a system that can encompass everything EDIT: but understand that what snipperrabbit is suggesting would be extremely easy to do, and it should be something we consider once I've taken a look

@ETM- thank you, this is a very good base for the tech tree. I have transferred it all over to the other forum in a new thread. ? mark just means I don't know enough about it and need to do research. I have a lot of additions to add to ancient/classical times and a few to medieval but it seems you did a very thorough job (and quite similar to what I wrote up like a year ago). Also, the eras will be much different from the normal civ4 eras, as the timeline is incredibly longer (ie 1750+2350+200+200+future turns, so 4500+ turns or possibly even more). The eras will be posted in the same thread as techs "Technologies and Eras" and I will then reorganize the techs into their respective categories

And just an optimistic note- things are becoming easier and easier! I can VERY easily adapt RFC Europe's code/python into my mod (making this a sort of modmodmod lol), the map is 98% done and looks fantastic, the graphics are better than ever, more and more stuff is available to me, I can achieve a huge level of diversity, and I am continually finding there is a place to easily manipulate almost anything in the C++ (ie forcing wars, rivalries, inflation, encouraging civs to go for certain techs and tech categories, religious conflict, etc etc etc) EDIT: and I think RFCEurope has begun its own papal system

I think the next steps to go from here are for me to make a base template for all my civs, then get the mod working like RFC, then work on everything else and filling out all the information for the civs/leaders. Of course this is after I release the map and its associated minimods, and while we are coming up with stuff and I am organizing it.

EDIT: I also think space is going to be a problem... graphics alone (before the mod goes into a zip file) will likely be 500-600MB or more. I realize this is ridiculous but I don't really care to be honest... Other XMLs might take up a bit of room, as some will be quite lengthy. Does anyone know what the upload limit on filefront is?
 
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