World History Mod development thread

[Gooblah]

A few things:
@ MooPoo: best name I could come up for it. I guess Classical Panthonism sounds better, but there were 12 major gods in the pantheon, and dodeca- is the prefix for 12....
As to the Religion List (mostly cosmetic):
- I think changing 'Orthodoxy' to 'Eastern Orthodoxy' may be better, though I'm not Christian or European, so that's up to you.
-Indigenous Spirituality could be 'Animism', which is the collective name I got in World History for the different African tribal religions, and 'American Animism' or IS could be kept for Native American religion (the two were different).
- Pantheon Worship sounds kinda...lame in a way. Classical Pantheonism sounds cooler (IMO), or at least more religion-y in a way (you always need an -ism!).
- Split Islam into Sunni/Shi'a. Each has had a unique impact on the world; Sunnis are represented by the Ottomans, the Umayyaid Dynasty of Spain/N. Africa, and the Shi'a by the Safavid Empire.
- Scientology? Come on...Replace it with Norse Pantheonism or something...whatever the Vikings did (y'no, Thor, Odin, Loki, all that good stuff).
-Split Buddhism into Zen (affects Japanese politics, and thus current economic trends in a way- though minimally), Mahayana (what spread to China, SE Asia), and Theravada (what stayed in India), though that's to your discretion.
-Paganism? What's this supposed to represent?
-Out of curiosity, what's Cao Dai?

Aside from this, its all good! Love the map, keep up the good work, and can't wait for its release!

 

[moopoo]

Lol dodecahedronism. Your logic works just fine (although -hedron refers to a shape), but that cracks me up

I'd like to voice my agreement in what Gooblah said above.

 

[Kao'chai]

So, it's a expanded rhye's and fall only without the goals and UP .So,are you going to create all the missing LH's ?
Wow , what an ambitious project!Looks like this is going to be a BIG mod.

 

[Angst]

Great work! You have done some searches. Now for annoying comments...

Protestantism/Reform - Stick with Protestant, because of all the 'Reform' churches are only slightly differed Protestant churches, and they are too numerous to be summized under 'Reform' in my opinion.
Orthodoxy - Rename to Orthodox or name it Orthodoxy; Gooblah mentioned Eastern Orthodoxy, but I don't think that is a very good name for a faith in a game of civilization. The name doesn't seem proper, and there isn't any real western orthodox. Mostly a reply for Gooblah.
Islam - If splitting Christianity, also divide this into Sunni and Shiite. I agree with Gooblah on this point.
Baha'i Faith - Name it Bahaism, Wikipedia says it has been called that before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha'i
Buddhism - Divide this in the numerous directions which I don't know.
Scientology - Don't. Just don't. It's only known to the world because Tom Cruise believes in it. It's too unimportant. Maybe do it if you want to include a Science Fiction part of the normal game - though you might want to include not-yet-existant civs if you do that.
Indigenous Spirituality - Don't include it if you don't want all of the minor sections of it included. It is a Pagan faith, and too uncommon. Or weren't it the African religions? At least use the 'largest' one.
Paganism - This is not a good idea. Although Paganism is a faith to be included everywhere and a commonly known 'religion', every nation in Civilization has already Pagan believers in the cities. Sid (Or somebody else in charge) said that including all Pagan religions would be too much work for nothing, especially as technically every ancient nation had her own Parthenon. Pagan faith was represented in the game, but only through the civic, and he 'religion' was in the first city you created - it simply wasn't displayed. At least Paganism is represented by Hellenism. But if you want a Pagan faith to be included, search a bit on the religion in Mesoamerica - the Mayans believed in astrology of some sort, and the Aztecs focused on the sun with all the sacrifices. Those religions lasted possibly 1,000 years before the Spanish came over and burned all their religious material. That would be a much more valuable inclusion.
Pantheon Worship (Hellenism) - Just name it Hellenism.

 

[Angst]

With the Rhye's and Fall leader change and Civ rise and fall, you would find the normal Traits system very tough to include.

I have no idea what you should do. I have a suggestion though. I think of another Trait system, which could be attached to the civs. A civ should have 2 (3?) Types.

Militaristic - Barracks grants newly trained units Combat I, and allows for X Scientist(s).
Economic - Resources produce X more , Recon Units can build Roads.
Imperialistic - Cities will begin at size X, and Settlers are produced X% faster.
Diplomatic - X% extra income from Trade Routes, X free when encountering new Civilization.
Exploring - X :Espionage: gained per tile explored, X gained per tile explored.
Seafaring - Naval Units start with Sentry, X free Merchant(s) in coastal cities.
Aethestic - New Cities have X base , all buildings +1
Religious/Spiritual - Missionaries do not disappear when spreading State (Except when failing), new cities have State incorporated when founded.
Industrious - Every city gets a free Factory when reaching Industrialism, Modern (Industrial?) Wonders -X% construction time.
Philosophical - 1 in all cities, Citizen Specialists generates 3
Academic - All specialists produce X extra , Universities generate X
Organized - Drafting only generates 1 , conquered city revolt time is reduced by 1 turn.

Of course there should also be another trait, which I'm too busy to do right now - which is a third thing, depending on the combo. Fx Agg/Cha in the ordinary Civ game is very powerful. In this system, you would get a third effect, say, "Combination effect: +10% city upkeep". On the other hand, weak combos would be fx Pro/Imp: "Combination effect: +25% Defense in all cities" or such. This is not tested, but is suggested to make balance in unfair combinations.

Please tell me what you think of such a system

 

[moopoo]

I think that would be very interesting (combination bonuses/penalties) as it's own modcomp.

 

[Gooblah]

Quick thing:
Agree with Lord Joakimm on religions. As to the Philo. trait in his new system, what kind of GP would a citizen generate? Great Citizen? Customizable? None? If it is a Great Citizen, I think an upgrade option to another Great Person (for a heavy price) should be an option, plus a mini-production rush.

 

[kevinman4404]

My comments on the religions:

Protestant - chose protestantism/protestant
Orthodoxy - chose orthodox (if I'm forced to use adjectives too)
Pantheon Worship - chose classical pantheonism... hellenism already refers to the Greek culture and I want this to apply to other peoples, such as the Norse (if I include them)
Islam - what is the islam used today by those in the middle east? Shia? If so, it will be split into Sunni and Shia.
Bahaii Faith - chose bahaiism/bahai (noun/adjective
Buddhism - probably will be split. Zen buddhism seems more philosophical than influential, and three types seems to be a lot. What are some more opinions on this?
Scientology - will never leave! Kidding, but really noone is disagreeing that it is getting a lot of exaggerated attention, and is sort of "glamourous" in a way. Not everything has to dominate world politics, and it would be an interesting religion to represent technological worship in the present/near future eras. We'll see. EDIT: but I also see your point about it not being influential BECAUSE if it isn't important enough to get a majority of converts in at least one civ what's the point?
Indigenous Spirituality - may or may not be renamed to native spirituality. This is for peoples like the NA and Aus. natives.
Paganism - is for religions which were seen as secular and inferior by civs such as the Roman empire. For ancient European civs, among a few other places
Tribalism - is for, for example, African regional religions

@Gooblah- Cao Dai is a religion with 8 million people that was formed after WW1... it appears to be a pantheonic cross between buddhism, hinduism and Christianity. At least, that's what I gathered from what I read on wikipedia

@Kao'Chai- Correction It's an utterly huge and ambitious mod created compatible with the RFC engine. My mod, versus RFC which is reductive and professional, will be quite feature-intensive and utterly massive, though still hopefully maintaining the 'cleanliness.' Heck no, I could never create that many leaderheads But I have found almost enough from other sources. I will be doing some backgrounds, some skins and maybe a couple remodels though. And welcome!

@Lord Joakim- Perhaps I'd understand your traits system better if you can tell me why Rhye decided to strip off the traits? I simply don't know what problems the system you created addresses because of that lack of knowledge.

I'm glad the religions stirred some debate, makes my job more interesting

I think that's all, I'll add more if I remember anything.

Kevin

 

[Angst]

I think the normal trait system makes Rhye's become very problematic. The game mechanics adds the Aggressive Combat I promotion to Melee and Gunpowder units through the Unit XML sheet, not through the leaderhead itself.

Which will probably make the game crash when the leader changes.

My trait system is just like Unique Powers actually, just remade, and I like this system better. It is simply traits connected to the civ itself.

Gooblah: It just generates a random GP and doesn't add to any odds if you have a Scientist or such already

So 1 Citizen assigned -> equal chance to get all GPs.
1 Citizen + 1 Scientist -> 100% chance Great Scientist.
1 Citizen + 1 Scientist + 1 Engineer -> 50% chance Great Scientist, 50% chance Great Engineer.

---------------------------------------

Regarding all the Pagan religions (Animalism, Pantheon Worship, IS, Tribalism) not including Hinduism, should be split up, or at least named, after small regional faiths. Fx Hellenism (Even though it's a culture) and Norse should be seperate. They are too unlike each other to share a common Holy City, if you get my point.

And try to include a Mesoamerican religion

Just my 2

 

[Wessel V1]

For RFC it was impossible to stay with the normal traits. In the settler maps it is scripted where civs will settle, the Incas won't found a city in Australia for example. The problem is that their settle territory isn't very good, in fact it really sucks. To give them something to eliminate their disadvantage, Rhye has made Unique Powers: The Incas get 2 food and 1 hammer from mountains.
With the normal trait system, they would be dead after a few turns, just because of their lack of good settle locations. Another example: The Dutch live in a small area, but they have to make large and good quality maps. With the normal system, they can't, because their ships can't even sail to Spain without getting Open Borders with France, which is quite hard. So their Unique Power is that they always may enter rival territory with ships.
Overall, I really like that system, because every civ has it's own powers, so the game becomes even mory varied.
I don't know what victories you want to enable, and the complete map isn't available yet, so I don't know if that system is needed here.

 

[Mattastic]

I'm not quite sure I understand the inherant difference betwen Paganism and Indiginous Spirituality then. As far as I can tell, they're both blanket terms for the many hundred native belief systems throughout the world which all have only two things in common: 1) they have at no point become major world religions (neopaganism notwithstanding), and 2) Christianity disaproves! I think if you're going to shove everything under the same term, you should at least not segregate it based on whether or not the faith has a European origin.

Alternatively, perhaps it would be better to group native religions based on their respective similarities, so you'd have Paganism in Europe, "Sacrificing People for Fun and Profit" in Central and South America, and so forth.

Also, I can't help but cringe on what technology would trigger the founding of Scientology. If it's "Dianetics", I can only hope you'll include more intellectual and deserving books in the tech tree as well, like The Very Hungry Catepillar.

 

[Gooblah]

90% of the Islamic World is Sunni, 10% is Shi'a, but Iran and Iraq are the only nations with a Shi'a majority.

Basically, the split occured over who would succeed Mohammed as the Caliph (IIRC)- The Sunnis believed that any good male Muslim could be a Caliph; Shi'a believed only blood relatives of Mohammed could rule. The Shi'a were driven out of Arabia into Persia and Baghdad.
New Religion Shortlist:

Spoiler :

Christianity
Orthodoxy
Catholicism
Protestantism
Islam
Sunni
Shi'a
Hinduism
Buddhism
Zen
Mahayana
Norse Pantheonism
Classical Pantheonism
Animism
Shintoism
Confucianism
Taoism
'Paganism'
Judaism

 

[kevinman4404]

@joakim and wessel... I see your points. Just to make sure... in your last two points, are you talking about the same thing? Lord_Joakim... I'm liking the look of them.

Regarding religions...

my divisions of pagan religions were based solely on intuition. And I didn't think about the need for a holy city. Is there any way I can do away with the holy city for certain religions? I would want it to act more or less like a civic, in terms of the bonuses it gives. I don't plan on using 'European' as a determining factor of Paganism, as that was only a very rough classification. Mesoamericanism would probably end up being another paganish religion.

Alternatively, what I could do for this is just make paganism a civic, but I'll only do this if when chosen a religious icon for paganism appears on the civ's cities. But I think it would be good if they spread. The spreading desire is in support of many individual pagan religions, however, I really am trying to avoid too too many religions.

Also, I can't help but cringe on what technology would trigger the founding of Scientology. If it's "Dianetics", I can only hope you'll include more intellectual and deserving books in the tech tree as well, like The Very Hungry Catepillar.

@Gooblah- at least it has a couple majorities then (iran and iraq). Are you in favour of splitting Islam?

Kevin

 

[Gooblah]

All the way in favor of splitting Islam. Each one has had a specfic impact on World History; Sunnis controlled the Ottoman, Arabian, Umayyid, and (IIRC) Mughal Empires. Shi'as controlled the Safavid Empire, which influenced current day Iran, Iraq, and parts of Afghanistan.

I think that Paganism and Animism shouldn't have a Holy City, since both represent thousands of indigenous religions across the globe. You could build a specific building only available to followers of that religion (like Spirit Temple or something), in replacement of a Shrine. However, it would have to balance a Shrine, since a Shrine would be a huge boost to that Civ's economy, whilst followers of Animism or Paganism would have trouble with that..
Also, are you splitting up China based on dynasties, if so, then here you go:

Spoiler :

Shang
Zhou
Qin
Han
Sui
Tang
Song
Yuan
Ming
Qing

 

[Kao'chai]

^Are you going to add kingdoms of the warring states period?

Wait I have idea : instead of paganism , when you found it ,it will be either (civ_adjective) polytheism or you get to name the religion

 

[moopoo]

Does that mean you'll be dropping Scientology, Kevin?

 

[Angst]

With the Rhye's and Fall leader change and Civ rise and fall, you would find the normal Traits system very tough to include.

I have no idea what you should do. I have a suggestion though. I think of another Trait system, which could be attached to the civs. A civ should have 2 (3?) Types.

Militaristic - Barracks grants newly trained units Combat I, and allows for X Scientist(s).
Economic - Resources produce X more commerce, Recon Units can build Roads.
Imperialistic - Cities will begin at size X, and Settlers are produced X% faster.
Diplomatic - X% extra income from Trade Routes, X free espionage when encountering new Civilization.
Exploring - X Espionage gained per tile explored, X science gained per tile explored.
Seafaring - Naval Units start with Sentry, X free Merchant(s) in coastal cities.
Aethestic - New Cities have X base culture, all buildings +1 culture
Religious/Spiritual - Missionaries do not disappear when spreading State religion (Except when failing), new cities have State religion incorporated when founded.
Industrious - Every city gets a free Factory when reaching Industrialism, Modern (Industrial?) Wonders -X% construction time.
Philosophical - 1 GP in all cities, Citizen Specialists generates 3 GP
Academic - All specialists produce X extra science, Universities generate X GP
Organized - Drafting only generates 1 Unhappines, conquered city revolt time is reduced by 1 turn.

Of course there should also be another trait, which I'm too busy to do right now - which is a third thing, depending on the combo. Fx Agg/Cha in the ordinary Civ game is very powerful. In this system, you would get a third effect, say, "Combination effect: +10% city upkeep". On the other hand, weak combos would be fx Pro/Imp: "Combination effect: +25% Defense in all cities" or such. This is not tested, but is suggested to make balance in unfair combinations.

Please tell me what you think of such a system

Regarding this system - here's an update _:

Militaristic - Barracks grants newly trained units Combat I, and allows for 1 Scientist(s).

Economic - Resources produce 2 more , Recon Units can build Roads.

Imperialistic - Cities will begin at size 3, and Settlers are produced 25% faster.

Diplomatic - 100% extra income from Trade Routes, 25 free when encountering new Civilization.

Exploring - 0.25 :Espionage: gained per tile explored, 0.25 gained per tile explored.

Seafaring - Naval Units start with Sentry, 1free Merchant(s) in coastal cities.

Aethestic - New Cities have 9 base , all buildings +1

Religious - Missionaries do not disappear when spreading State (Except when failing), new cities have State incorporated when founded.

Industrious - Every city gets a free Factory when reaching Industrialism, Industrial, Modern, Future Wonders -50% construction time.

Philosophical - 1 in all cities, Citizen Specialists generates 3

Academic - All specialists produce 1 extra , Universities generate 2

Organized - Drafting only generates 1 , conquered city revolt time is reduced by 1 turn.

--- Combinations ---

Religious/Imperialistic - 1 per non-state religion in city, Missionaries are created 25% faster.

Philosophical/Academic - -25% Military Unit construction, Universities generate +1 culture.

Seafaring/Exploring - Caravels moves 1 tile further.



You get it now superkevin?

 

[kevinman4404]

@Kao'Chai- I'll be including them however I can, reasonably. I may add all states, though, preferrably I'd like to find a way around this. I may end up just making the region very unstable during that time period.

@Gooblah- split it is then. And I'm really not sure how I'll do China yet.

@moopoo- chances are, yes (well I haven't really made it in the first place)

@Lord_Joakim- I think so Are those all the combinations you want, or were you just trying to give me an idea? Anyways, I'll start off using these (plus any handicapping traits I add for power/expansion sake). Balancing is probably my last concern, as long as it's realistic.

~~~

I had decided yesterday not to do any settler maps, but rather to just use all basic (all neutral) settler maps, and try to see if I could get my different map to work with RFC.

Well, yesterday's efforts failed.

I basically tried to make it as simple and as similar as I could.

I made the "normal areas" "core areas" and "broader areas" one tile large, the exact same tile as the civs' starting locations, for simplicity.

I checked the plots to make sure no starting locations were on mountains or water, to avoid any trouble there.

I also fixed the barb cities, and simplified that further.

EDIT: I've also fixed the CityNames python file to fit my map.

What I most need to know is...
has anyone ever succeeded in making a different map work with RFC?
do any of you RFC players have any suggestions?

This is unfortunately completely neccessary to overcome- the mod is officially impossible and halted without being able to load the map in the mod.

I'll be asking around and doing some research.

Kevin

EDIT: my alternative is to start with my mod, and carry over anything with a reference to "settler maps" from RFC to my mod. However, this method will take a long time, and since I may break many links of references, I may end up with an absolute ton of errors.

Please let me know if you have anything to say about the questions/comments above the edit.

 

[moopoo]

You'd really hafta talk to Rhye to get the full picture, but from what I understand, RFC is filled with map specific events and coding, that would make it impossible to seperate the two. Perhaps a PM to Rhye wouldn't go astray?

 

[Angst]

@superkevin

It was mere suggestions, yet I would be delighted to see the system being included in WH

Concerning Rhye, I second a PM to him.