World History Mod development thread

[kevinman4404]

EDIT: Will repost later

But in the meantime

@GeneralSpecific: thank you! I appreciate it. Let me know what civics you come up with for building government types (ie sovreignty) or anything else you're working on, I just have to be able to make all possible government type combinations (while not being able to do ones that do not go together)

EDIT: done settler maps for all North American civs

PS I am brainstorming a VERY EASY siege system for this mod. I had a coupld reasonably good ideas but have since realized the won't work. They must ABSOLUTELY NOT be complicated- I just don't want cities taken right away if they have fortifications. Please don't use numbers, etc., just let me know a way I could make it, with a bit of coding, so that you cannot take the city right away

Perhaps change the capture city code so that instead of the city going to you when you should win it, you bounce back. After a semi-random amount of time based on how good your fortifications are, the fortification is destroyed (ie the walls break, as in real life) via python or the city surrenders and flips (and you'll have the option to raze it). Of course, you must stay adjacent.

The hard part about that would be getting the city to NOT be captured, and to get the unit to bounce back, unless the fortification has been destroyed as described above. That sounds like hard coding.

Let me know if you have any equal or easier ideas I could try.

Kevin

 

[kevinman4404]

Flags for all North American civs are done (and by done I mean in-game). I finally got the horizontal flag working.

Units are almost all fleshed out, though I'm sure I/others will think of more. Check them out at the mod's forum! (first post) and head to UUs/UBs/BaseUs/BaseBs thread NOT Unit Brainstorming

I will not be able to finish or even work on the mod without a little more activity... it makes me wonder if civ4 really is getting old and the forum is dying slowly. I feel like I am working on this mod for my own personal indulgence rather than serving any real purpose right now; it is a longgg project but bear with me

Please give me any ideas for an easy siege system

Also, there is a wishlist on the first page for anyone willing to help (right now its very small but it'll eventually explode)

Kevin

 

[moopoo]

By Seiging do you mean a new system for Bombarding and lowering defences, or a new system of starving out a city?

 

[kevinman4404]

Nah, those two you can already do. I am looking for an easy way of implementing siege warfare- you have to besiege the enemy city and either kill the garrison (represented by breaking down the fortification) or force them to surrender.

I provided an example a couple of posts back. It is simplistic, but still contains some hard coding. I am looking for the easiest possible way to do this, or for easier, similar siege ideas.

By siege I am referring solely to city capture- when am I able to capture the city? All along its been you kill all the units then walk into the city. But that's not realistic. You should either have to break through the fortifications or the enemy surrender and let you into the city. In real life, you would besiege, occupy the area, and possibly gain control over the region in a peace agreement. But for now let's just look at a siege mechanism.

EDIT: Actually, I am thinking of taking your siege/fighting idea, from your idea thread, almost directly.

PS: my subscriptions have, after a 1 year period, started working again

 

[GeneralSpecific]

For Snipperrabbit's proposed government system:

Broken down into: Sovereignty (Who rules), Suffrage (Who/What Chooses)

Sovereignty:

Monarchy: Rule By One
Suffrage-
Despotism: Absolute Monarchy
Divine: Divine Monarchy
Hereditary: Hereditary Monarchy
Popular: Popular Monarchy

Oligarchy: Rule By Few
Suffrage-
Hereditary: Tribal Oligarchy
Despotism: Miltary Oligarchy (Junta)
Merit: Aristocratic Oligarchy
Divine: Theocratic Oligarchy
Popular: Representative Oligarchy (AKA, modern "Democracy")

Demarchy: Rule By Many
Suffrage-
Popular: Popular Demarchy (Athenian Democracy)
Despotism: Despotic Demarchy (Mob Rule)

Anarchy: Rule By All

Any questions or critiques are readily acceptable!

Any other orders, Kev?

 

[kevinman4404]

No orders; you're assistance is much appreciated. I think this will work just fine! So you're suggesting two categories:

Sovereignty:

Monarchy
Oligarchy
Demarchy
(Anarchy not applicable; we're stuck with leaders, aren't we? Should probably be reserved for chaos)

Suffrage:

Despotism
Divine
Hereditary (reqs Monarchy or Oligarchy)
Tribalism
Popular
Merit (reqs ?)

As you can see, I can make civics require other civics. This was a modcomp done by thelopez or someone else (and makes life so much easier)

How would I represent dem. republic? as a popular oligarchy? which is fine but how should I represent Const. democracy, monarchy, etc.? Would const. democracy be popular demarchy or popular oligarchy? What suffrage civic could I use to represent the word Constitutional?

Also, should there be a difference between absolute monarchy, enlightened despotism and despotic monarchy? The modern context of the word despotism implies that a despot is manipulative and tyrannical, whereas an absolute monarch has at least some interest in the state.

And how would I represent these? (and should one-party state be seperate from absolute monarchy? it would be nice to have it seperate)

Noble Republic
One-Party State
Constitutional Republic
Constitutional Monarchy

and how about feudal monarchy? does that require another suffrage civic?

~~~

Please check out the map page and give me suggestions for the seasonal mods (wintermod, summermod, floodmod). I do not yet know how I want it to work. The sooner I know what we want to achieve in this department, the sooner I can release a whole bunch of stuff related to the map; it's 90%+ ready.

 

[Gooblah]

Hey!

Suggestion for Siege:
If your units control the immediate 8 tiles around the city, it can't work the exterior tiles (only in Ancient -> Renaissance), and thus goes into Starvation. If you can get a Worker over to the Siege, then the Tunnel improvement becomes an option. It'll take two-four turns to complete (during which the chance for the city to surrender increases by 25%). Finally, when it's done, the defensive bonuses of the city when attacking from that tile fall to zero.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

How would I represent dem. republic? as a popular oligarchy? which is fine but how should I represent Const. democracy, monarchy, etc.? Would const. democracy be popular demarchy or popular oligarchy? What suffrage civic could I use to represent the word Constitutional?

Add another civic category titled "Constitution" and have the player check it off if he/she desires to be restrained (or if the people demand it!).

Also, should there be a difference between absolute monarchy, enlightened despotism and despotic monarchy? The modern context of the word despotism implies that a despot is manipulative and tyrannical, whereas an absolute monarch has at least some interest in the state.

Well, I don't think so, because however manipulative and self-interested the monarch is is up to the player.

And how would I represent these? (and should one-party state be seperate from absolute monarchy? it would be nice to have it seperate)

Noble Republic
One-Party State
Constitutional Republic
Constitutional Monarchy

Noble Republic = Aristocratic Oligarchy = Aristocracy
One-Party State - This one could be a product of absolute Monarchy without political rights; perhaps rights should be a category eventually during/after the Enlightenment.

 

[kevinman4404]

@generalspecific: can I use this set of names for suffrage?

Despotism
Theocracy
Nepotism
Tribalism
Democracy
Meritocracy
Constitutionalism

Also, is Constitutionalism really an answer to the question "who/what chooses?" And isn't the despot more the person in charge than the person choosing?

Anyways, I've updated civics on the WHM forum.

The next step would be to flesh out at least a vague idea of what the in-game effects will be (maybe not totally in detail but enough that it can easily be translated into the game)

@Gooblah: I'd love to use the 8 tile system, this is like what Moopoo suggested in his idea thread. However, I may use a 4 tile system to make it more practical; I am not yet sure. I have a feeling what you suggested for tunnelling is similar to sapping; this is already done (I think) in another mod, so this would be good.

I think this system may be good (let me know if any concerns): Fortifications will give a significant bonus to troops defending the city. Stocking units inside your city will cause the city to shut down. In addition, it will use up extra food depending on the number of troops stationed inside.

When surrounded on all 8 (or 4) sides, the city is under siege. This cuts off any contact with other cities and improvements (I think my mod will incorporate resource sharing- ie productive cities giving food etc to non-self-sufficient ones). Also, this will create a chance of surrender, depending on a random variable, civics?, number of defensive and enemy attack units, starvation, etc. It will also, over time, create a chance of destroying the fortification, removing the city defense bonus. Sapping would guarantee this.

I also wish you could occupy a city without becoming the new owner, as in real life, it is very hard to accomplish that, either your enemy or your population usually has to convince you to give the city to the other side. But I have no clue how I could do this.

*Please offer any wintermod/summermod ideas in the map thread

Kevin

 

[moopoo]

Feel free to use, edit, change, blah blah blah, my siege idea, just gimme credit

One Idea that I just had is that posting units in a city uses up the food stored by the granary - If you run out of that the units start losing health.

Also a 'bombard buildings' or 'bombard walls' would be a nice feature so that you aren't just sitting there, but have something productive to do with those catapults while you're waiting.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

@moooo : Is posting equal to garrisonning ?

Also, kevin, how many time the turns will take in your mod ?
Here I mean :
one turn = five years OR
one turn = one year OR
one turn = three months OR
one turn = one month OR
...

Cannot share thoughts on Winter & Summer until I know that !

 

[moopoo]

posting does mean garrisoning, yeah

I really can't imagine a world history mod (all 6000 years of it) using turns less than a year. it boggles the mind.

 

[Gooblah]

A quick formula for the Garrison/Surrender system:

Combined Defending Strength (incl. promotions that DIRECTLY affect strength in a city*) = D
Combined Attacking Strength (incl. promotions that DIRECTLY affect strength attacking a city**) = A
Tile Control (number of tiles controlled around city, must be > 4 to kick in, otherwise it's a zero) = T
Number of Attackers (on controlled tiles) = N

Surrender Chance increase per turn = S

Forumla: S = ((A x 2)/D) + (T/N)

The way I see it, Attacking strength would probably be overestimated by a scared/starving population; thus, it would be doubled; dividing it by raw defense strength would create an estimate of how the enemy would fare. Dividing the number of tiles controlled by the number of units the enemy is fielding would give the average number of units surrounding each part of the city, increasing 'fear'.

Thus, adding one to the other would produce a good chance IMO.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

Kev, what do you think of this?:

Legitimacy: Why do I have the right to rule?
- Max Weber determined three sources of legitimacy:

Charismatic authority. Legitimacy based on the charisma of the leader, often partly based on the perception that this leader has certain extra or supernatural attributes. Example: a tribal chieftain or a religious leader.
---Could be divided into Divine, Merit, Force, Tribal. These governments tend to be either very good or very bad.

Traditional authority. Legitimacy based on tradition; e.g., people accept the government for the simple fact that it has been around for so long and is based on popular customs and usages. Example: Monarchy
---Could be divided into Hereditary

Rational/legal authority. Legitimacy based on the perception that a government's powers are derived from set procedures, principles, and laws which are often complex and are written down as part of the constitution. Example: representative democracy or bureaucrats.
---Could be divided into Constitution

There is also likely one set aside for Progressive, Communist, Socialist, Populist societies that was not designated by Weber:

Popular Authority. Legitimacy is based upon the idea that only the people can make government power legitimate. The people's will determines the legitimacy of government action. Whatever the people want is what the government ought to do.
---Could be divided into Popular

Note:
Although some charismatic and constitutional authorities, like monarchies, also employ hereditary rule, they do not justify the right to rule based upon heredity, but simply as a fact that the charismatic/constitutional authority provides that hereditary rule is the means of exchanging power and not the means by which the regime is legitimized.

 

[Krug]

I'm going to go back to working on this. I was playing AOE III today and was suddenly reminded of this. So, Sorry for leaving. I know we're probably almost done with Civ's right now, so, I'm going to finish what I started as well as assist on everything else that is being worked on right now.

CHEROKEE NATIVES
Leader: Oconostota "ocanostata"
Personality: Protective/Defensive, Cultural , Spiritual
UU1: Ayastigi
UU2: Commanche Swarm
UB1: Didnawisgi
UP1: Power of the Appalacians (All soldiers start with Guerilla 1)
UP2: Power of Assimilation (Cherokee automatically start out with +3 in relations with any European Nation)
UHV1: No outside influences in Cherokee lands for 400 years until 1000AD.
UHV2: Let no more than Five Cities be Established past the Appalacians until 1600 AD
UHV3: Establish a defensive pact and fight on the side of a European power
UHV4: Survive Until 1700 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal (democracy)
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization, (Free Subjects)
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Tech Group: Native American
Art Group: South American Native(Or North American Indian if we're adding Art Groups)
Unit Group: East Native?
Culture: Cherokee
Start: 1000 B.C.
End: 1794 A.D.
Rating: 2/2/3 [2]
--------------------------
TUPI
Leader: Cunhambebe
Personality:Agressive, Spiritual
UU1:Tomoio (Scout that can Attack Cities or Other Units)
UB1: Maloca (Courthouse that can Raise Happiness and Lower City Maitnience Costs)
UP1:Cannibalism (Can sacrafice Population for Food)
UHV1: ?
Government Type: Tribal
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Unit Group: South American Native
Tech Group: South American Native
Art Group: South American Native
Start: 500 B.C.
End: 1500 A.D.
Rating: 1/1/3 [1]
-----------------------------
ARAWAK NATIVES
Leader: Agueybana
Personality: Peaceful Charismatic Spiritual Traditional
UU1: Blowgunner (Archer with Woodsman I (And II if it isn't overkill)
UB1: Canoe Dock (Dock that adds +1 Happiness)
UP1ower of the Caribbean (I really don't know for this one. I'm thinking along the lines of Decreased Maitnence Costs for Cities on Separate Land Masses.)
UHV1: Control the entire Caribbean by 1200 AD
UHV2: Be the first Native American Nation to Encounter Europeans
UHV3: Survive until 1600 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Unit Group: South American Native
Tech Group: South American Native
Art Group: South American Native
Start time: 1000 A.D.
End Time: 1500 A.D.
Rating: 1/1/2 [1]

 

[kevinman4404]

@Krug: excellent! I'll update the civs before I go to bed. What do you mean by almost done with civ's? The game is getting old, not that that will stop me, but if you mean filling in civ information, I am no where near done. However, for testing purposes I am for the most part doing it continent by continent, so we are on schedule. Though if you know any information on any civ, or just feel like chipping away, that too is appreciated

Blowgunner will be awesome, if I can find the graphics (I can't yet animate, though I can do any other modifications). However, I think I've seen it around before.

For Cherokee UHV#4, you ask them to survive until 1700AD, even though it says they ended in 1794AD (?)


@Moopoo:

Feel free to use, edit, change, blah blah blah, my siege idea, just gimme credit

of course

One Idea that I just had is that posting units in a city uses up the food stored by the granary - If you run out of that the units start losing health.

Nice; don't know if that's within my python abilities though

You will of course be able to use siege units to bombard, though I am not sure exactly how it will work, mechanically

Also, kevin, how many time the turns will take in your mod ?

It depends on the era. It will be 1 turn per year until 0AD. Then, 2 turns per year? until maybe 1100AD. Then, maybe 4 turns per year until 1850AD. Then, maybe 8 turns per year until 1945, and 16 beyond that.
4000+2200+3000+760+(16x however many years after 1945)
NOTE: I had already had a decent timeframe built up, and I wrote it down somewhere. I will look around- these numbers are just temporary ones until I find where I posted them. In case you need to know, there will be 4 turns per "seasonal month" and 8 turns per "season" (spring, winter, fall, summer). There are 4 seasons and 8 months in an imaginary year.

Forumla: S = ((A x 2)/D) + (T/N)

Wouldn't having more units on controlled tiles increase the surrender chance? In your formula isn't it decreasing the chance? Anyways thank you for putting this in numbers/variables, this makes writing the python a lot easier. I'm guessing the answer is in %?

More to come in my next post

 

[kevinman4404]

@Generalspecific: this is a possibility. Is this your suggestion to fix the problem I outlined? If we did this it would go under two categories (Legitimacy, plus I would need a name for the second category) for example hereditary would have a prerequisite of Traditional Authourity

~~~

IceMod (ice cover) is now complete! It is going under some final testing, then I will insert it into my North-America-test-mod.

WinterMod and SummerMod are a lot more complicated than ice cover (which is quite straight forward), and still need ideas.

Also, I am custom-making leaderheads for Alexander McGillivray and Tecumseh. I hope they'll turn out ok. After that classical/medieval North America will be ready for early testing

 

[Krug]

1st off, Good News! I am making a series of Civ4 Expansions that only add Civs? Why am I telling you this? Because, these Civs are as close as possible to the ones that will be found in this game. So basically, you can use my Modpack as sort of a Giant Reference to see how everything works.

2nd. Sorry, I meant to say Survive until 1800 in the Cherokee UHV list.

3rd.


HURON/ALGONQUIN NATIVES
Leader: Dannacona
Personality: Protective/Defensive
UU1: Mantlet
UU2: Algonkin Tomahawk Charge
UB1: Midewiwin
UP1: Power of the Great Lakes (work boats and transports move one extra tile)
UHV1: Expand to Roughly Huron Cultural Borders by 1492 A.D.
UHV2: Eliminate the Iroquois Confederacy by 1700 A.D.
UHV3: Form a Defensive Pact with the French by 1754 A.D.
UHV4: Have no Cities with High Sickness by 1800 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization, (Free Subjects)
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Tech Set: Native American
Art Set: Eastern Natives
Unit Group: East Native
Culture: Huron
Start: 500 A.D.
End: 1797 A.D.
Rating: 1/2/1 [1]

SHAWNEE NATIVES
Leader: Tecumseh
Personality: Protective/Defensive
UU1: Panther Muskets (Musketmen with Less Strength, but have Stealth Capabilities.)
UB1: Tribal Council (Courthouse that Adds +1 Happiness and +1 Health)
UP1: Power of Alliance (European Nations more Willing to Form Defensive Pacts)(This is Different From the Cherokee as their Power adds +1 in General Relations, this is just for Defensive Pacts or Open Borders.)
UHV1: No Outside Influences in Shawnee Lands until 1492
UHV2: Defeat the Iroquois Confederacy by 1763
UHV3: American Cultural Borders cannot be anywhere West of Shawnee Lands on Mainland America by 1817
Government Type: Tribal (democracy)
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization, (Free Subjects)
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Tech Group: Native American
Art Group: East Native
Unit Group: East Native
Culture: Shawnee
Start:1000 A.D.
End: 1817 A.D.
Rating: 1/?/2 [?]

CREEK NATIVES
Leader: Alexander McGillivray
Personality: Protective/Defensive
UU1: Creek Arquebusier
UB1: Mound (Walls that give a +2 Culture Boost)
UP1: Power of the Mississippians (All Cities Start with a Free Mound Building)
UHV1: Control Modern Day Alabama, Florida, Gerogia, and Mississippi by 1540 A.D.
UHV2: Eliminate or Vassalize the Cherokees by 1813 A.D.
UHV3: Defeat the United States in a War by 1814 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal (democracy)
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization, (Free Subjects)
Preferred Religion: Shamanism, Protestantism (Minor)
Tech Group: Native American
Art Group: East Native
Unit Group: East Native
Start: 800 A.D.
End: 1861 A.D.
Rating: 2/2/2 [2]

SIOUX NATIVES
Leader: Sitting Bull
Personality: Agressive, Protective, Expansive, Charismatic
UU1: Dog Soldier
UU2: Sioux Dragoon
UB1: Seven Fires (Courthouse, adds +1 Culture and +1 Happiness)
UP1: Power of the Plains (x1.5 for Effects given by the Bison Resource (If Bison isn't a resource, well Then I must be playing too much Rise of Nations.)
UHV1:Control all of Modern North Dakota, South Dakota, and Minnisota by 1492 A.D.
UHV2: Have an Army of at least 30 Cavalry Units by 1850 (Let me know if this Number needs to be Increased or Decreased.)
UHV3: Make Sure No U.S. Influence is in the Great Plains by 1890 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization, Free Civilians
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Tech Group: West Native
Art Group: West Native
Unit Group: West Native
Culture: Sioux
Start: 0 A.D.
End: 1890 A.D.
Rating: 2/2/3 [2]

MISKITO
Leader: Oldman
Personality: Peaceful, Traditional, Cultural
UU1: Maroon (Musketman with Guerrilla I and Woodsman I)
UB1: Chocolate Plantation (Replaces Market, gives +1 Happiness No Matter what)
UP1: Power of Refuge (If a Nearby Country has a Slave Revolt +1 Population in the City closest to the City in Revolt.)
UHV1:Never go to War with any other Central American Nation until 1492 A.D.
UHV2: No Spanish Control in Central America by 1823 A.D.
UHV3: Survive until 1900 A.D.
Government Type: Tribal...Monarchy?
Preferred Civics: (Plutocracy), Decentralization
Preferred Religion: Shamanism
Tech Group: South Native
Art Group: South Native
Unit Group: South Native?
Culture: Miskito?
Start:500 A.D.
End: 1894 A.D.
Rating: 2/?/2 [2]

The Preferred Religion for All Meso-American Civs should be Toltec Faith if we are still using that. The only Two Exceptions to this should be the Miskito and Olmecs.

Agueyabana's Personality: Peaceful, Seclusionist, Expansive
Favorite Civics for the Arawak: Barter System, Tribalism, Seclusionism

REMAINING "TO DO LIST" FOR ME
Tie up Loose Ends for "Done" Native American Civs
Complete Native American Civs not yet Completed
Finish Modern American Civs
Move on to Europe

 

[kevinman4404]

@Krug: excellent! I thought Miskito would be a hard one!

Soon, we'll have all civics outlined; after that, we're gonna have to choose one from every category.

Also, just note I (tentatively) removed Sioux, Ojibwe, Navajo, Apache as normal civs (as they were not kingdoms or empires, but rather chiefdoms or tribes) and just made them native groups (kind of like an independent, minor civ). I kept Cherokee, Shawnee and Creek as they were actual nations in the medieval era. EDIT: just noticed I had accidentally left Sioux on there. I will leave it on but it likely won't be included, unless I find proof that it was more than a chiefdom/tribe

1st off, Good News! I am making a series of Civ4 Expansions that only add Civs? Why am I telling you this? Because, these Civs are as close as possible to the ones that will be found in this game. So basically, you can use my Modpack as sort of a Giant Reference to see how everything works.

sounds fantastic! i wonder if you'll top civ gold. Anyways if you need anything, just let me know. For example, I just finished art for Commanche Swarm Tactics and Creek Arquebusier, and will soon (hopefully) have two very good leaderheads for Creek and Shawnee. I'll counter-help you in any way I can. Oh, and if you can make some of the UHVs and UPs in your mod, that would be amazing (if you can code, though you could always borrow what you can from RFC etc.). This, guaranteed, will be the component of my mod that will take the longest to complete, and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to finish all of them (I'll keep my fingers crossed)

I am trying to stick to (more or less) world religions, or at least really crucial ones. We had agreed to generalize a lot of religions. However, I am still not sure exactly how religions will work yet.

Careful with the tech groups- these are more general. You can see choices at the top of my gigantic civ thread.

Lastly, when it comes to making artwork for the obscure civs (ie miskito) for both of our mods, let me know what you think your UUs should look like.

Also, when you have time (before you move on to any other continent), could you help me with the Chimu civ? This one is proving elusive, and I'll need it before I can start polishing/testing North and South America.

I'll have updated by later tonight EDIT: updated. I have adjusted difficulty on some, or done some streamliming, but I'll notify you of any major concerns/adjustments

I realize this can be a lot of work (it's taken me ages to compile all this), so take your time with it thanks for your help

~~~

I figured out how my pistoliers will work. Pistoleers will be metal-armoured cavalry who use a normal (cavalry) animation and one pistol.
The UUs Caracole Infantry (France) and Reiter (Germany) will use an animation where they turn from side to side and shoot the pistol they have in each hand. I am done artwork but not animations.

Kevin

 

[Gooblah]

Wouldn't having more units on controlled tiles increase the surrender chance? In your formula isn't it decreasing the chance? Anyways thank you for putting this in numbers/variables, this makes writing the python a lot easier. I'm guessing the answer is in %?

More to come in my next post

Woah, crap, you're right. Hmmm...

Maybe change the (T/N) part to...say...(N/T). Add an if statement such that if T == 0, then S=0.