World History Mod development thread

[kevinman4404]

@GS: you could, though if you can only choose one the effect would have to be smallish. Which may or may not change your mind on that. As for allowing development, the whole proposal is up to you (though I hope everyone will chip in so that we get a very satisfying final decision), of course that would be nice, as long as it is a solid system that allows a reasonable immitation of all historical civs.

Also, make sure you get the effect you desire, it must have some sort of tangible result on the personality of AI civs. And remember if you add a civic category, all the AI civs must be able to choose there preferred civic from that category. This is one aspect of how I am determining AI. (the others are XML, and stuff like preferred unitAI, diplomatics (python), etc.)

~

I now hopefully have the resources to convert some vanilla AOE3 models. If I meet marginal success I will try and convince people (outside of this thread) to develop the process

I will also start putting aspects of the mod together, though most will wait till after civics (not just the civics system but choosing a civic for every single civic category for each N/S Am. civ)

 

[Gooblah]

GS, it would honestly be a female dog to code.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@Kev,

Just curious but why would the effect have to be "smallish"? As far as AI personality, I would say that is doable; consider Venice, definitely favoring the merchant class, therefore would favor Plutocracy. The United States, for the most part, would choose Democracy, etc. Of course, these would all be different based upon the era in which a nation resides. England, for example, would change from Aristocracy to Bureaucracy,to whatever else (historians, do your thing!).

@Gooblah,
Yeah, I figured it would. I will put it on the backburner for now in order to move forward. If anyone can put it together though, that would be, of course, awesome.

@Anyone,
By all means, if I miss something, if I left something out, if I am blatantly wrong, please tell me. Contribute, Correct, Converse.

 

[nutnut]

This has probably been asked before, but what will you do with the British Isles? Will it have seperate nations (England, Scotland, Ireland, maybe Wales) that unite or just one Civ (in which case bear in mind that the words England and Britain are not interchangeable)?

And also, during the Dark Ages, will we see Civs such as Northumbria or Wessex or Mercia?

 

[Grishnash]

Question:
How does the Civilization rise and fall system work in WHM? I was looking at your civs list, and thinking about how you want dynasties included and about the Fatimid...
And it came to me, how would that work, exactly?
In your list, I saw that there was Muscowy - Novgorod - Russia - Soviet Union. Now, I myself see them as one civilization really. But you have them as individual civs, Muscowy i presume to cover both the First Russian State and the Grand Duchy of Moscow, however, I don't see Novgorod as an independent sovereign state alongside Muscowy. But if it was, how does the Russia (Which I assume is the Tsardom of Russia) come about?
Does a new civilization just get born in 1263 and assumes control over all of both Muscowy and Novgorod cities? That wouldn't make sence for a human player who'd have no choice but to switch to the Tsardom. Then theres the Soviet Union, again, same civilization, not a new born nation or a split off rebellion, how does Russia go from Russian Empire to Soviet Union? And then back to Russia again?
I mean, I can understand Novgorod, it only comprised of the upper west part of Russia, and can understandably be an independent civilization. But Russia and the USSR cover all of Russia and is more succession like the Ottoman Empire to the Turkish Republic then you know, a new civilization.
Japan is still Japan, theres not two civilizations the Japanese Shogunate and the Republic of Japan, there is no Nazi Germany, so why is there many different Russias and Dynasties, and how would that work in the first place?

Put simply, I was just wondering how exactly the Wheel of Civilization turns.
In Rhye's, Civilizations simply changed names under certain conditions, i.e. Muscowy -> Tsardom of Russia(I think this was with Hereditary Rule) -> Russian Empire(Forgot this condition) -> Soviet Union(State Property). Now, I know you mod takes it to a whole new level and has many, many new civilizations but.........
So, it'd just be really great if you can explain to me how your civilizations are going to work

Another thing, I think you missed out Pre-modern Middle-Eastern Civilizations in the 'Grand Civ List'.

And if you don't mind I'm gonna go ahead and discard Benin/Dahomey from the civilizations list.
Also, is there going to be a Modern Mali or just a Ancient Mali Empire?

Furthermore, about religions, I think it is important to put down a coherent list of all the Religions to be repersented in World History (even if just names for now). And I think it is essential to have an African religion as many African Kingdoms were of such faith which caused clashes in the West and North with Islam. It is as significant as having Native American religion or even European Religions (prior to Christianity).

I'm sorry for the cramped and blurtiness of the post, but I wanted to just get it out there as it came it to me. Sorry! Hope you don't get confused.
Oh, and I know you have studies so, you know, take your time replying no rush.

Good Luck with the Mod and your Studies, mate!

- Grishnash

--------------- Just Think. You'll Stand Out. -----------------

 

[kevinman4404]

ATTENTION: CIV LIST IS IN POST #5 of civs thread on civjunction forum (I mislead everyone)

@GS: by smallish, I mean, if you can only choose from one (ie civic implementation) the effect would have to be small. I'm not sure I know how to explain it, but that would prevent that version from overplaying things. It is not an issue with sliders (where you can choose more than one). If anyone knows what I mean please explain! Anyways, if I had to choose, I'd say, if it's not a core part of the system as a whole, let's wait until we have the solid civics system down first.

@Grishnash: well, obviously I haven't coded anything like that so far. The RFC system is to have settlers and a certain number of soldiers appear, and often have cities flip. Also, you (I think) told me of revolts causing new civs to appear. The other way involves python and is simply a name-change (python, not based on civics like RFC). Also, I'm not sure if this ever happens controllably in BTS or Colon. but at some point colonies should spawn off distant lands, and later (this hasn't been done yet) they should attempt to gain independence.

By the way, Nazi Germany does exist If I can figure out how to flip all cities over (and back if Germany loses, as it probably will considering it is (generalization) one civ against many), I will probably keep it that way. I know it is sort of silly. However, it is the only way I can use Hitler as a leaderhead without misrepresenting Germany, and it allows me to program a (much) more aggressive AI.

I have a strong feeling you are looking at the wrong civ list. One is a dictionary (with info on each) and the other is a simple list. It is found in post #5. (this is both modern and pre-modern)

Abbasid
Afghanistan
Akkadia
Ak Qoyunlu
Arab/Rashidun?
Armenia
Assyria
Ayyubid
Babylon
Durrani
Elam
Georgia
Greco-Bactria (Bactria)
Himyar
Hittite
Iran
Iraq
Judah
Lydia
Media "Medes"
Oman
Pakistan
Parthia (/Arsacid)
Persia (/Achaemanid E.)
Phoenecia
Pontus
Qara Koyunlu?
Samanid?
Saudi Arabia
Scythia
Seleucia
Seljuq (incl. Zengid and Rum)
Sumeria
Syria
Timurid E.
Trucial States
Umayyad
Yemen

N/S American, African and Asian civs are the most up-to-date and closest to finalization

I guess we could drop Benin/D. If Dahomey was essentially the precursor to modern Benin, and modern Benin isn't even included, not much of a point.


Moscowy covers whenever the civ's name was based off of "Moscow."
Russia covers whenever it was called Russia (or similar).
Moscowy becomes Russia at some point.
Novgorod is a seperate entity.
Still, research will happen as we get closer to Europe.

As for religions, that depends on whether everyone wants a set list, or a base list + schism mod ( I forget who made it... sorry whoever it was!) It is a nice mod. But it's up to you folks (more or less )

If you can provide ample evidence that most non-Muslim African civs follow the same religion, TAR will be included. Otherwise it's a simple matter of making Muslims and Animists? (I'm always mixing the two up) not like eachother a little, and python diplomacy. (and note... I have no "Native American" religion, well it's just represented broadly as Shamanism, and there isn't much for pre-christianity in Europe, mostly Greek, Roman?, Celtic, and other Pagan. Or, paganism and pantheonism. Something. As you can tell I haven't really thought about Europe yet).

Mali is both ancient and modern, with the emphasis obviously being on the great Mali Empire. Perhaps add one modern UHV? There is no need for modern UUs etc. unless you find something really really noteworthy about the modern civ.

On the British Isles there is of course England and Scotland. I don't remember if I included Ireland (subject to change), I'm guessing I did. Wales may be different from England but I consider it kind of a puppet of England, and too small, and certainly too unimportant. Prior to England, Wessex will be there. I don't know about any of the others, which might end up being independents. They have to be important on at least a semi-continental level. And there has to be room.


To simplify things a little, for now, let's leave out anything involving me having to make popups/sliders/buttons/etc. I will try and figure out how to do this in the second half of the summer.


And now, to get things rolling and to keep people from losing faith, I will set a tentative (can only be changed if there's good reason) N/S America (not including modern or colonial civs) Test Mod release date of 6/31/09. Don't expect too much! It really is a massive undertaking.

(if audition is successful, and likely won't be, I may be busy almost all summer in which case it will be pushed back to 10/31/09)

By the way, while I'm still quite busy, the next 2 weeks will be about as good as it gets during the school year (excluding holidays). So you can consider me currently not busy

 

[Grishnash]

Hello.
I've done a little update to the African Civilization List, and I'd appreciate some C&C
Take a look Click Here

On Germany, would the player have any say in the arrival of the Nazis? Or would they just have to play the Nazis if you play as Germany?
So when Muscowy turns into Russia, it just changes it UUs/UBs/UP and UHVs? Does the human player get a choice?

Okay, I've looked at the list, now I'm no expert on the Middle East but I think that there is No Turkish Empire on that list. At all.

There are many branches of Traditional African Religions, many west African states practised different branches of TAR, same with other African states across the continent. Though all these Religions shared many same principles, (I.e. One almighty. All living entities(and some non-living) having souls, angels, etc...) and such they still differed as much as Catholicism and Protestantism. Though I firmly state that Animism and TAR are NOT the same. TAR does have components of Animism in it, but so does all of the Major World Religions.
However, in the interest of the game, I guess merging the two makes sense and thus I'll fix my list as such.
There's a list of religions on the CivJunction Forums in IdeaPit, I think it's the list of religions that was originally on the OP of this thread, it's probably out of date by now though.

Hmm... How could N/A American, African and Asian civs be more up-to-date then European ones?


Well, I'm glad things are coming along! I hope things continue to progress and that you do good on your audition

Good Job so far!

 

[kevinman4404]

I've done a little update to the African Civilization List, and I'd appreciate some C&C

I can be a little more helpful when I transfer the information to the main civ database, but it looks great And I'd also like to ask that, if artwork or images do not already exist, that you give me a vague and creative guess at what the UU/UB should look like. Often it's like trying to draw Mohammed (no real idea of what it would look like). Sorry, it's a somewhat tedious task, but I will need it at least by the time I work on African artwork (long time from now still)

As for TAR, I think you make a weak point, seeing as TAR and animism share all vital characteristics (afaik, I'm no expert). Comparing animism and TAR is SO different from comparing animism and christianity, along with many other religions. Again, if there is a significant difference, or reason to split, that has a function in-game, please let me know

On Germany, would the player have any say in the arrival of the Nazis? Or would they just have to play the Nazis if you play as Germany?
So when Muscowy turns into Russia, it just changes it UUs/UBs/UP and UHVs? Does the human player get a choice?

extremely likely that WW2/Nazi Germany will happen. In which case it switches to Nazi Germany/Hitler. If you put all efforts into avoiding events leading up to WW2 (such as the previous wars) maybe it's possible. But I don't know. It'll be ages before I am modding events, especially for Europe. I don't know how Moscowy became Russia. However, I doubt it makes of a difference. Presumably, the Uniques would change, but by then the old ones would be uselessly old (I'm guessing). But then again, I think what I had originally intended was to just do a name-change. I don't see much logic preventing me from putting both sets of UU/UB together.

How will Luba/Lunda change work (I noticed you combined them, which is fine)? Simple name change? Though it'll be weird caz that would mean I can only have one settler map, so the whole general area will be settled from the beginning. Not a terrible flaw at all

Okay, I've looked at the list, now I'm no expert on the Middle East but I think that there is No Turkish Empire on that list. At all.

There are lots of Turkic civs, so I am guessing you mean the Turkic/Ottoman Empire. In which case, CRAP, I forgot, it may or may not be in the European list, if it isn't I forgot to replace it in the Middle Eastern one. Thanks for pointing that out!

Hmm... How could N/A American, African and Asian civs be more up-to-date then European ones?

Because I'm very knowledgeful of N/S American history/geography, you very much so of Africa, and I went all-out on selecting Asian civs. For Europe I just listed the obvious and semi-obvious

Also, if there are any quams with the African flags let me know. Otherwise I will assume you are fine with it. I may redo Numidia, drawing on those elements and making it look more tribelike, and I will choose one flag for Luba/Lunda.

~~~

Done colours for N/S American civs, well, actually 2/3 of all civs. It actually takes a ton of patience to find hundreds of individual, dark enough colours. And I'm also tending to choose drabber colours as opposed to bright/strong colours. I am thinking it will be just one colour per civ (instead of 2), and that since I avoid bright colours to some degree, I might get away with doing text the same colour too. This makes colouring hundreds of civs so much simpler.

3ds max 2008 will be done dling tommorow, so using my 3 versions of 3dsmax I should finally get to do some more experimenting with converting stuff from AOE3 to Civ4. There are SO many REALLY useful units in there, and some bases for harder-to-make units, stuff like flamethrowers, rockets, etc. All with the proper animations. For North/S America this involves the Blowgunner (Carib?), Lightning Warrior (Zapotec, better version than mine), Huaminca (Inca), and a ton of native american ('indian') units

If that doesn't go well, and I expect it won't, hopefully I can find someone on this site who would be interested in developing the current conversion procedure enough that models can be properly converted

 

[Grishnash]

Well, I didn't want to push TAR too much, if anything I'll just make a little mod-mod for myself and add it in myself when the mods done
Yeah, maybe just a name change for Luba/Lunda would work.
Yep, I was talking about the Turkish/Ottoman Empire that ruled most of the Middle-East and North Africa for a considerable time. And no, their not in the European list either, I looked (Don't know why they'd be anyways, they're not Europeans )

The Flags are great!

@Any/Everyone: Is it okay to have two or more civilizations sharing one or more UHV conditions or should all UHVs be completely unique and one of a kind? Right now I have some civilizations sharing some UHV conditions, and personally I think their okay because it will create competition between civilizations but I wouldn't mind some import from the community.

Anyways, good luck!
<--- Cheer squad

-------------If you don't stand for anything, you'll die for nothing.------------

 

[kevinman4404]

XD

(the only reason it was in European list because I was looking at European mods for civ ideas, and usually Ottoman E. is in those mods... this was agessss ago)

Well, UHVs will undoubtedly be similar ("control said region", be only inhabitant/culture, etc.). UHVs can be the same, I am thinking, as long as this is done very limitedly (not too repetitive). If you want to make lots the same, that is for continental/religious goals.

NOTE: I could probably be able to create the conditions for UHV (python), but I have no idea how I will get the computer to try to achieve the goals, except through indirect means (ie settler maps, diplomacy editing, etc.). So we'll see for UHVs!

Please remember (Grishnash) to fill in artwork guesses at some point! ps I noticed you fixed ur sig (length), I wondered how long it would go unnoticed

*progress to come shortly, I hope*

 

[SimonB1er]

how is the map is going?? Any release soon??

 

[Grishnash]

Alright. I'll start on artwork guesswork soon, though I kinda wanted to finish the list first
What do you mean about my sig? It's been the same for a while now... <,< >,>

Oh, yes, and I've edited my African List, check it out.

Gooooodddd luck

 

[kevinman4404]

@SimonB1er- the map is indefinitely postponed until someone can help me on Wintermod. That component is SOOOO essential, and so utterly amazing, but I do not really understand how the game's graphics system works, which is vital to getting the performance I need. If I can find noone who can/wants to help, the map can be taken from my mod when it is released in second phase (once Africa is done). If you know anyone competent in the game's graphics, please let me know! The map really does have awesome potential, I'm just very reluctant to release anything but an absolutely superb product, which has achieved its primary goals (incl. wintermod)

@Grishnash: LOL I was thinking about someone else, my bad
I did another Africa comment in the mod forum

@everyone: thank you for the great participation so far! things are going ok.

(However, I will delay conversion experiments; I ran into licensing issues with 3dsmax on this computer, so I have to install 3dsmax2008 on a different computer and use portable license utility. This will happen in 3 weeks time)

And to put my N/S American knowledge into perspective, I have bought 1500 pages worth of reading on N/S American prehistory. I sought to have each book be thorough and give a truly broad perspective on the region(s), ie not just Aztec but all main cultures. Anyways that should be fun
~Prehistory of the Americas
~The Ancient Civilizations of Mesoamerica: A Reader
~The Incas (etc.)
(500 pgs ea)

Oh yeah, and also Windows 7 for christmas. Hopefully the transition goes smoothly, but I'd imagine stuff will run the same on 7 as it does on Vista. (And in a couple years they're gonna release windows 8... is there any end to this cash grab? It turns out I wasted some money on Vista Ultimate, because the Canadian deals are a letdown and omit 7 Ultimate altogether, and because the features of 7 Ultimate would no longer benefit me)

 

[kevinman4404]

I am done the xml colour information.

Next things to do:

Get leaderheads arranged (or use blank one or 2d where applicable), AI personalities
Make tech tree in Vanilla using tech tree editor (I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just make them in vanilla...)
Civics (whenever they are ready)

If possible I will attach a mod folder to check out the tech tree, when it is complete.

EDIT: My North/South America part of the civ list is now finalized (theoretically). Again. It now looks like this:

Arawak~
Argentina/La Plata
Aztec
Brazil
Canada
Carib~
Cherokee
Chile
Chimor
Colombia
Creek
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Huari
Huron
Inca
Iroquois
Maya
Mexico
Miskito
Mixtec
Nazca
Olmec
Paraguay
Peru
Shawnee
Sioux~
Tarascan
Teotihuacan
Toltec
Tupi~
United States
UPCA/Guatemala
Venezuela
Zapotec

~ means not really a civ in the sense we are looking for (ie kingdom, empire, fed., etc.)

 

[kevinman4404]

I am just about done fleshing out a tech tree on my own! Hopefully he comes back at some point soon! I will also scan every nice mod out there and see if me and ETM missed any nice techs.

I will soon have a list of techs that I need dates for (I will of course chip away at it whenever I can). Like some are multiple inventions/times, some developped without a clear invention point, and some are downright weird (like stuff you'd never expect to find a date for). But soon there will be a good tech tree fleshed out, I thought it would be an absolute pain in the neck but it's actually proving pretty easy

I am also letting everyone know I will not be working on this for 7 days + 3 setup days (I installed Windows 7 and will install civ and the rest of the stuff in a week (after exams))

Hopefully civics can be posted over the holidays, but don't feel too pushed, the mod releases will be done when they're done

 

[kevinman4404]

OK, everything is installed and running, here is a call for assistance on a few tech dates

ERAS:
Ancient (pre-classical)
Classical (Greek and Roman Empires)
Medieval (500AD-1400AD)
Enlightenment (1400AD-1750AD)
Industrial (1750AD-1900AD)
Modern (1900AD-2010AD)

these are all approximate and are given for reference

I am looking for approximate dates for the following techs. Note that they must be within the era specified.

-Compound Machines (classical)
-Hereditary Nobility (classical)(I'm not sure what ETM meant by this)
-Construction (classical)(as with this one)
-Civil Service (medieval)
-Natural Philosophy (medieval...)
-Right of Man (I'm guessing 1200AD?)(medieval)
-Engineering (medieval)
-Public Works (enlightenment)
-Scientific Husbandry (enlightenment)
-Water Power (enlightenment)
-Mechanization (enlightenment)
-Aeronautics (modern)
-Electronics (modern)
-Nuclear Engineering (modern)

thanks! and happy holidays

 

[moopoo]

Solely from Wikipedia:

apparently the first recorded use of a "precision compound machine (as opposed to a simple machine)" was the chinese in 550BC
Hereditary Nobility: The Shou Dynasty in China was Feudal, which would put the date at about 1600BC. Medieval philosophy on the matter was based on Plato and Aristotle, which would put it at... 400, 300BC?
Classical Construction: hmmm. Roman Pile Drivers were used at around 55BC? or else Roman concrete, which has been recorded in use at 25BC?

Civil Service: wikipedia sucks.


Electronics around 1950 (before that it was considered radio technology)
Aeronautics at 1945, about when the sound barrier was broken?

(this post to be edited as i look up more stuff)

 

[kevinman4404]

thx for the help so far moopoo! Just to let you know I now have Construction and Civil Service covered, as they are in TAM and I can therefore estimate where to put them into my tech tree

Almost ready!
Merry christmas to you/anyone in an earlier time zone!

 

[Grishnash]

Merry Christmas everyone!
Good to see things coming along.
You know kevin, it would have been a much smarter move switching to Mac instead of Windows 7 where you'll find just more bugs and shortfalls Mac rules!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year + Happy Holidays !

 

[Grishnash]

Greeting for the first time this year! Though it is a few days late, I would like to wish you all a happy New Year.
Now, I've slightly updated the African Civilizations list, but have run into some... Issues...
First, my knowledge of Fatimid, though workable, is limited and thus wouldn't mind some input from the community.
Second, I question the necessity to have the Bamana Empire included in the mod. But am still working (slowly) away at it.
Third, well, I work slowly... and with little visible progress on the mod I tend to work slower on my list, sorry .

I looked at the map outline and seriously considered doing the African civilizations settler maps, unless of course someone else is already working at it.

Either way, good luck with the mod and the New Year!
Hope things are coming smoothly.