World Relgions Mod - opinons, help?

[Wyz_sub10]

Eusebius,

The more I think about atheism as a religion, the more I wonder if "Secular Humanism" wouldn't be more appropriate.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god/gods. Secular Humanism has associated principles and values, and might be more analagous to the other religions included.

 

[Ranbir]

The Sikh special wonder can be Hari Mandir, or Golden Temple.

I'm willing to give a civilopedia entry on it too. If we did get into special bonuses or unique units, we'd have to look at all the religions as a whole first.

 

[Eusebius]

As an atheist, I wouldn't necessarily object to Marxism as a "kind" of atheism, but I'd rather see atheism as simply a highly secularized state where religion isn't outlawed but benefits are minimized. Accompanying this would be a bonus in science and some kind of social freedoms civic.

So how does this kind of atheism really differ from the "Freedom of Religion" civic?

I'm also curious to hear some historical examples where religion really inhibits scientific research. Copernicus/Galileo and stem-cell research come to mind, but I can't currently think of any others.

Furthermore, western history will inevitiably lead to examples involving Christianity. Are there examples of any other religions inhibiting research? I think the case would have to be made rather broadly to justify a research bonus for atheism (unless you are really describing something else, like the enlightenment.)

Eusebius

 

[Wyz_sub10]

So how does this kind of atheism really differ from the "Freedom of Religion" civic?

That's why I suggested Secular Humanism. Atheism is more neutral while SH may be more active in terms of their position.

I'm also curious to hear some historical examples where religion really inhibits scientific research. Copernicus/Galileo and stem-cell research come to mind, but I can't currently think of any others.

Well, those two are kinda big. But evolutionary biology, cosmology and anthropology are three areas impeded by fundamentalism - the first one being the basis for medical research, so the possble negative effects are quite significant. Remember that I am referring to state religions here - not just the presence of religion in a state. (I know hundreds of Christians who acknowledge evolution, but no *fundamental* Christians that do).

Perhaps the best example would be the stagnation of science in Islamic fundamentalist countries, primarily during the religion's fledging years. The Arabic world went from being a pillar in scientific development to a region that watched the rest of the world pass it by in that regard.

Furthermore, western history will inevitiably lead to examples involving Christianity. Are there examples of any other religions inhibiting research? I think the case would have to be made rather broadly to justify a research bonus for atheism (unless you are really describing something else, like the enlightenment.)
Eusebius

As above, Islam is probably the best (and strictest) example. Most animist religions have this effect, as well.

Simply put - if a society attributes a great deal to metaphysical powers (powers that cannot be tested, quantified or measured) than it will, de facto, be less likely to investigate physical causes to those phenomena.

The reality is that most people in Western Christian nations reject evolution in name only (those same people still tend to visit doctors, take anti-biotics, and notice that their children have "their mother's" eyes).

But if a fundamentalist religion becomes a *state* religion, than pursuing these sciences becomes a graver matter than that of public opinion.

 

[Mr.Earl]

Here we go again.

 

[Willem]

I have been trying to find out if there is a lot of history of warfare between Shia and Sunni muslims. I know there is currently in Iraq, and that there was in the 1980s between Iraq and Iran, but how about going back a few centuries?

Should formation of Shia be a schism, or just a variant?

Eusebius

The way it was explained to me, after the death of Mohammed there were two people in line for Imam, or whatever the top holy person was called at the time. The followers of each are what we now consider Sunni and Shia, with the Sunni candidate winning out. So the division has been around for quite some time now, since shortly after the formation of Islam itself.

 

[Willem]

I have been trying to find out if there is a lot of history of warfare between Shia and Sunni muslims. I know there is currently in Iraq, and that there was in the 1980s between Iraq and Iran, but how about going back a few centuries?

Should formation of Shia be a schism, or just a variant?

Eusebius

The way it was explained to me, after the death of Mohammed there were two people in line for Imam, or whatever the top holy person was called at the time. The followers of each are what we now consider Sunni and Shia, with the Sunni candidate winning out. So the division has been around for quite some time now, since shortly after the formation of Islam itself.

I just found this link on Google:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm

 

[ArmPilot]

Will you include (Neo-)Paganism? There are only 1 million "followers", but it is one of the oldest forms of religion

I know this is off topic but I beleive that there are morethan just 1 million new-pagans, I think there are many more but don't wish to admit it freely becuase of fear of being looked down upon or being persecuted. I mean, even an athiest would look more down on a neo-pagan then a christian, or atleast most of the time.

Now on to a more related matter.

I agree athiesm is much more suited for a civis than actual religion and here are my opinions. It would force you to have no state-religion and will stop all religious spread in the nation. Other countries would be slightly more disliking of you if you use this civic rather than just having a different state-religion. For example, countries with different religions will have a -4 to you while using an athiest type civic will have them having a -7 or something to you. Having this civic could remove remove a religion from cities from time to time, depending on if you have an actual way todo it over just having it happen randomly.

Another question, will you simply have pagan religions grouped into one general religion or include several different ones? And if you have original pagan religions, will you also include neo-paganism late game?

I'm sorry if these ideas or questions have already been asked or stated but for some reason I found this thread to be difficult to follow as I read it.

 

[Mr.Earl]

Eusebius accidentally mistook my thread for this one, and posted his update there. So rather than having him type the whole thing out again I'll tell you what he said.

UPDATE: I'm getting fairly close to the Alpha release. Documentation and XML going well, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out the Python thing. I am a programmer, but new to Python.

Looking foward to it Eusebius!

 

[Eusebius]

The Sikh special wonder can be Hari Mandir, or Golden Temple.

I'm willing to give a civilopedia entry on it too. If we did get into special bonuses or unique units, we'd have to look at all the religions as a whole first.

Love that enthusiasm Ranbir! I could use a civilopedia reference on Sikhs. Seems to me that the unique thing about early Sikhism was that some of the early Gurus were also military leaders. If you could emphasize that in your write-up, that would be cool.

NOTE: I am tending to emphasize the early aspects of religions. For example, I am making the Temple of Solomon a big deal for Judaism, even though the religion has changed much since those days. Thinking the same way about Sikhism. Changing civics can show the ways religions change over time.

Still need art work. For example, I would love stuff for Sikh temple, monestary, missionary. (Do Sikh's have cathedrals?). Will need something for the Golden Temple too.

Eusebius

 

[Jas]

Love that enthusiasm Ranbir! I could use a civilopedia reference on Sikhs. Seems to me that the unique thing about early Sikhism was that some of the early Gurus were also military leaders. If you could emphasize that in your write-up, that would be cool.



Still need art work. For example, I would love stuff for Sikh temple, monestary, missionary. (Do Sikh's have cathedrals?). Will need something for the Golden Temple too.

Eusebius

Hi,

Sorry to jump in here, but it's the later Gurus that were soldiers and instilled the martial traditions into Sikhism. This is where the concept of the saint-soldier was born i.e. a spiritual warrior, who only fights in defence, for the oppressed and the weak.

The Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib) is the ultimate building, but there can be others, such as the Akal Takht which would logically give a military promotion.

The logical traits would be spiritual, and perhaps aggressive? Not sure of the second, but the two work as a pair even though aggressive is not the right word.

The unique unit could be the Nihang, a spiritual warrior who has forsaken everything in the pursuit of spiritual goals, and martial arts (primary weapons being the sword and also a throwing disc).

Hope this helps

Jas

 

[Reveilled]

Perhaps Catholic countries should have a bonus to population growth because they are opposed to birth control?

Just on this point, I'd say that given that birth control only actually becomes possible in what equates to the final turns of the game, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control necessarily translates into a growth bonus when other religions' positions on birth control have the same effect as catholicism's for most of the game, i.e. none.


I imagine I'm inviting a lot of argument by suggesting this, but what about giving Catholicism a research bonus? Lots of groundbreaking scientific work was done by catholics and catholic clergy, and catholicism, from my (admittedly sparse) understanding, was traditionally willing to adapt its interpretation of scripture to support scientific theories when those theories were well researched (not always the case, of course, but everyone lets their biases get in the way sometimes), while many forms of protestantism were and still are much more resistant to any scientific through that contradicts a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Catholics also produced many great works of art, so a culture bonus might be appropriate.

Here's what I would suggest: Initially, catholicism provides a bonus to culture and to research. Once Scientific Method is discovered, the research bonus is removed, and the culture bonus is doubled. So, the bonuses could be, for example 5%/5%, and then 10%/0% after Scientific Method.

 

[Eusebius]

Here's what I would suggest: Initially, catholicism provides a bonus to culture and to research. Once Scientific Method is discovered, the research bonus is removed, and the culture bonus is doubled. So, the bonuses could be, for example 5%/5%, and then 10%/0% after Scientific Method.

I think this is what is already in the game as a research bonus for monasteries which then becomes obsolete with Scientific Method. Protestantism contributed a lot to public education early, but there is probably no practical way to incorporate that in the game.

E.

 

[Reveilled]

I think this is what is already in the game as a research bonus for monasteries which then becomes obsolete with Scientific Method. Protestantism contributed a lot to public education early, but there is probably no practical way to incorporate that in the game.

E.

How about this then:

You are able to convert buildings upon religious conversion, so can you do it upon discovery of a technology? Have two buildings named "Catholic Monastery", one which produces +3 Culture (i.e. slightly better than regular monasteries) and +10% research, and a second which produces +4 Culture only. Then, upon discovery of the Scientific Method, convert all Catholic Monasteries of the first kind to the last kind.

For Protestants, replace the Protestant Monastery with "Missionary Society" (since protestantism doesn't bother with monasteries) which only produces missionaries, and give them a religion specific building "Protestant School", which becomes available with Liberalism that adds +1 Culture and +15% research, which does not become obsolete with Scientific Method.


Assuming that is possible, it would (I think) produce a situation whereby Catholics lead the frontiers of science until Protestants begin to lead the way in the Industrial era.

 

[Eusebius]

Project Status – April 12, 2006

I’ve had a blast doing a lot of research on various religions. I have played with Python enough to know that I can do what needs to be done. I’ve completed this document and edited the XML files for Religions and Buildings. I am now going for broke and decided to implement the whole thing at once.

I am putting this out there (A.) to let folks know that I am still alive and hard at work and (B.) to get some input from the community about these directions and some of the specifics. Have at it!

Thanks,
Eusebius

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is only the beginning. To see the full document including the tables that show the modifications to the tech tree and the specs on each of the religions, click on the attachment here: View attachment 123252.



Quick Overview of Religion Technologies

Divine Appeasement -------------> Ordained Social Order -> Universalism
\------------> Divine Patronage -> Ordained Government -> Prophet-King

{No religious tech assumes an animism where you are completely at the mercy of spirits with no control over what happens to you.}

Divine Appeasement: Can appease the gods with sacrifices made in temples by priests. Generic ‘pagan’ Temple not associated with any specific religion. Gain access to civic Slavery. This is the perquisite for the other religious technologies; it requires Masonry and Mysticism.

Divine Patronage: God(s) is actually on your side. Gain access to Theocracy civic. (Think: religion supports government.)

Ordained Government: God(s) sponsors your government which works closely with your religious hierarchy. Gain access to civic Organized Religion. (Think: government supports religion.)

Prophet-King: Your political leader speaks God’s word. Gain access to civic Police State. (Think: Government and religion are synonymous.)

Ordained Social Order: God(s) defines the social classes in your culture. Gain access to civic Caste System. First to discover founds Hinduism.

Universalism: God(s) have a plan for working out the salvation/enlightenment of everyone in the world. Gain access to civic Pacifism.

Different Ways for Religions to Spread
 Settlers bring it with them. (Settlers will have religion randomly selected from all those in their city—equal chance of having “no religion” too)
 Brought by conquest—state religion of conqueror spreads to city.
 Brought by peaceful missionary activity--most effective when religion arises out of another religion.

Spread Rate (default=100)
 +25 if religion founded with Printing Press or later.
 +25 if religion founded with Radio or later.

When the religion encounters another religion, what happens?
1. Hostility. {Give high bonus to state religion culture}
2. Competition/Coexistence. {default}
3. Religion adapts itself to new religion (Syncretism). {Give high bonus to global culture}

Is the religion ethno-centric? (Is religion exclusively centered in a particular ethnic group?)
If so, we will inhibit its ability to expand beyond one civilization in the game. I am currently thinking that this means the religions will not have missionaries at all.

I am implementing three Worldviews which are kind of like religions, but act somewhat differently. They are Hellenism (representing individualistic, Western thought), MesoAmericanism (representing all native American thought) and Confucianism (representing eastern thought). These do not so much represent religious beliefs as basic ways of looking at things. For example, Europeans who came to North and South America had very different views of what it meant to own/use land than did the native peoples who were already here. A given city can only ever possess one worldview; they are mutually exclusive. The worldview makes the spread of different religions to that city either easier or harder. I kind of feel bad for leaving out an African worldview, but it seems to me that theirs is the default value before there is any religion—an animistic valuing of the world where everything is considered to be alive.

The religion food-chain. Many, many religions arise out of other religions and make their initial set of converts out of that successor religion. In this mod, religious buildings of successor religions will sometimes convert to the new religion. The chain looks something like this…

Generic Pagan Temple will convert to most anything

Hinduism
-> Jainism
-> Sikhism

Judaism
-> Christianity
---> Modern Catholicism
---> Protestantism
---> Islam

Shinto -> Tenrikyo

Confucianism -> Taoism

Stand-alones: Zoroastrianism, Cao Dai, Buddhism, Secularism, Bahai (comes out of Islam, but doesn’t convert Islamic buildings)

NOTE: When a city is conquered, the state religion of the new owner may destroy existing religious buildings. For example, Islam and Judaism tend to take a dim view of polytheistic religions and their idols. If, through conversion and/or conquest, a city ceases to have any buildings of a particular religion, then that religion ceases to have any influence in that city.

Concerning Atheism: This topic has generated a lot of interest in a lot of threads (which still amazes me). I finally settled on a generic ‘secularism’ which is an amalgam of Marxism, secular humanism and Juche. On the religion food chain, secularism can convert temples back to pagan temples and destroy monasteries.

Getting those first Great Prophets: I am contemplating a variety of ways to make this happen in a timely fashion. I’d really like feedback about this. Here are some ideas…
 First to discover some religious techs get a free Great Prophet.
 Oracle produces a free Great Prophet instead of a free technology.
 Generic/Pagan temples grant a free priest specialist rather than making a person happy.


PS. If you have never heard of some of these religions, remember that the great god, “Google”, knows all.

PPS. Remember all the rest of this document is here: View attachment 123252

 

[Jas]

Fantastic work there

However, your great god (google) has made a few mistakes. I'm happy to help with Sikhism if you don't get it elsewhere. Send me a message/email if you want to chat

You have got it mostly correct though

 

[John Stalin]

It is pretty nifty, I'm not entirely sure Christianity and Philosophy are that close however... and are there going to be any pantheistic religions for the ancient times?

 

[Dryhad]

 Brought by conquest—state religion of conqueror spreads to city.

How frequently does this happen? I think it's important to have, at least some of the time, a conquered city "rebelling" and having it's own culture.

I also disagree with your placement of Organised Religion and Theocracy. Theocracy isn't so much religion supporting the government as it is religion controlling the government. Theocracy is the very image of "Ordained Government".

 

[Mr.Earl]

When will this be ready?

 

[John Stalin]

I've been reading and Zoroasterianism only hass 2.6.mil.... and Neopaganism has inbetween 1-3 mil... I am thinking perhaps you should add alot more religions. I've been using wikipedia as a tool... wow sorry im drunk rioght now so if my posy doesnt make any sense im soryy