Worldreligions or Generic-only-Religions

Worldreligions or Generic-only-religions


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but fully developed real religions bring huge controversies with them, to the extent that they would be prohibitive. Just doing this means that this is firaxis opnion on this religion, that people of religion A are better than people of religion B at doing this etc...

they could basically implement the whole thing, & provide it to us in trait "module", like "high population growth", "xenophobic", "Industrious" etc...
 
Let me know when you've read through and absorbed the ideas already posted in this thread. I'd prefer not to have to repeat teh same discussion every time a new person enters a thread.
 
In general the civ paradigm has not been for modular design within the game. Modding outside playing the game is a different story, has the plethora of creative mods have proven, but one might notice there is no Unit Workshop or Social Engineering in Civ 3. All Civ 3 representations of government, history, and other social phenomenon have been concrete. If this was SMAC 2 or MOO 4 I would think differently, but modular design does nto fit in with the rest of the game's feel.
 
To summarize the thoughts, Big Bird, we've established that real religions with real traits is not only too contraversial, but it is too innacurate ... unless you can have a model of religion that shows how much argument there has been within religious groups (some who believe that this commandment is more important, or that this guy said this and others who say that never happened) and how religious groups can split, and cross-pollinate. The prior model is either a waste of time and energy for something unfruitful, and the latter is so elaborate that it might as well be its own game.

The DIY religion model seems fruitful, but it might as well not even be called religion. I can't say that designer-religions has been a historical fact, although it might add a lick or two of strategy to the game. Doesn't seem worthwhile to me, though.
 
Actually, I did think of how religion could be implemented that matches to spirit of Civ in general. In Civ government does not change how you can rule your nation, it just determines how your economy is calculated a little bit how your military is percieved and supported. Religion could be the same way, your religion determines something about your society interacts with something else.

In both cases the Civ series has been pretty insensitive about the subtleties and evolution of government in general. Democracy means many things to many people, the same as FAscism refers to Mussolini only, and Communism is an economic system. If we can accept that insensitivity, religion will just be another thing we laugh about.

There is one way to fix both a little. Create evolutionary splits you can utilize of governments and religion. Imagine, you can move from basic monarchy to constitutional monarchy(closer to representative) or theocratical monarchy(your leader is also the religious leader). Republic could move to federal republic(US democracy) or communal republic(very localized) or centralized republic(France). Despotism could evolve into military oligarchy(coups mostly) or theocratical oligarchy(ancient Israel) or ideological oligarchy(Stalinism) or nationalist oligarchy(Nazism, Fascism, etc.). Each civ could even have a name for each of these states so they were more then concept names.

The same could be done with religion so there would be less and more tolerant forms and toher variations that would have some strategic importance.
 
dh - i know we had a bit of discussion about religion and what was holy war nad what wasn't, but that doens't mean we have to rule out religion.

Religion can be miplemented - it will take alot of work and alot of time to get it right, but I think we can have a working model at the end of it which can realistically reflect world religons and also be acceptable to most people in all the world.

There will always be some people who will always disagree - like those who say the holocust never happened in WWII - but if we followed their views then all the jews in the world would be dead by now.

But coming to my main point - I think a real world religon model can be worked out - its just that there are more important aspects of the game that need more urgent attention.

For example - it would be nice to have a new audio system system and dvd player and stuff installed into my car - but you know what - it could do with a service as well - oil change, sparks, air filter. World Religon's would be nice - but what's more essential? The new upgrade or a service?

P.S. I'm in favour of a more dynamic religoin model, but can accept a static one - as we probalby will have to.
 
I'm in favor of a deep dynamic religion model.

I think a static model ends up being "teams" or "auto-teams". Because there are no traits (since those are unrealistic to apply across entire religions) and no evolution (since it's hard to model the gradual changes of religion over time) you'll end up with these labels. Whether the player chooses them from a list, or whether they are imposed on them by some kind of calculation, users will end up on these religious teams. Team Christian will fight Team Islam in the middle ages.

Doesn't seem worth it to me. Not in the slightest. What a waste of development time that could be better spent on something that actually impacts the game.
 
Players are not on teams automatically because of government, so they should not be on teams automatically becuase of religion. It would be another modifier for strategic reasons, just like government. If you think about it, government does not change your poeple's attitudes and lifestyle over time, it is a switch for things to take effect.
 
I think a static model ends up being "teams" or "auto-teams". Because there are no traits (since those are unrealistic to apply across entire religions) and no evolution (since it's hard to model the gradual changes of religion over time) you'll end up with these labels.

The "evolution" of the religions could be loosely tied to the scientific progress and/or some other new or old aspects, which wouldn't be that hard to implement. It wouldn't need to be a smooth transition, it could be done either by somekind of religious revolution, as the protestantism, or by various small steps over turns.

As for traits, it's not unrealistic to apply them religions based on their history. Like I've said before it's done to different civilisations in similar way, based on their history not genetic disposition. They could make the Scandinavians Seafaring and Religious/ Commercial and make the ones with Norse Mythology/Religion highly aggressive/militaristic for example, since the Scandinavians became calmer under Christianity. I don't see that it would be totally unrealistic...
The traits could be controversial but that's an issue for Fireaxis.

If religious traits are implemented, like most people here obviously want, they shouldn't be nearly as influential as the civtraits.
 
Actually, dh_epic, if teh primary function of a religion is to restrict wonders (as in my model), there will actually be competition not between religions, but within religions. If we couple that with diplomatic bonuses for being the same religion, that could make for quite an interesting dynamic.
 
And actually my evolution model was going to be based on technology and time. For example, once your civ has been religion or government x for 100 turns, if they had the appropriate tech they could evolve into that form. Maybe government types as well as religion should be inherent to civs, like traits.
 
I think wonder groups are pretty solid. But I'm not certain it's a worthwhile exercise to implement religion just to have wonder-groups. If this is the lone benefit of religion (aside from being on "Team Christian") then I don't care. If there are more benefits, then I'm intrigued.

So let's discuss the implications of these models:

Hard-wired evolution paths in the tech tree would let you play through what happened in history. Embrace Judaism, then Christianity, then Protestantism. You wouldn't be allowed to do anything too drastic, like Judaism, Christianity, then Buddhism, but you'd still get some of that evolution. This model has some realism to it.

But you'll never have more than one religion in a Nation.

You'll never see people converted except when the government makes a sudden change.

And you'll never see what could have happened if Europe embraced Buddhism, and everyone put their own spin on it like they did Christianity. Christianity divided significantly, whereas Buddhism is a bit more consistent (without being monolithic).

Do you acknowledge all of these as realistic outcomes of those religious models, and are you willing to live with that consequence?
 
dh, I think youve misunderstand my model in how you cange religion.

There are four primary religion techs, namely Polytheism, Monotheism, Dharma, and Secularism. Each gives you a one-time chance to switch to any one religion within that group (Animism, the other broad religion class, is the default religion). Of these, monotheism and dharma have polytheism as pre-reqs, and secularism should have early modern age pre-reqs, such that it will almost certainly be the last of these techs to be gained. In this model, dharmic religions are on an equal par with monotheism for when they can be acquired.

Note that national religion in this sense isn't referring to a state-sanctioned religion (that would be a theocratic government), but rather to the popular consensus. Almost no modern western country today has a formally state-authorised religion, but we can't deny there is a popular consensus for a particular religion.

In addition to the one-time switch option when gaining those techs, you may also get religious great leaders (prophets etc) who have, as a special function, an option to change your national religion to anything you have the tech for. Leaders allow for some truly astounding religion changes, even as far as going back to animism.

So, to address your points.

Hard-wired evolution paths in the tech tree would let you play through what happened in history. Embrace Judaism, then Christianity, then Protestantism. You wouldn't be allowed to do anything too drastic, like Judaism, Christianity, then Buddhism, but you'd still get some of that evolution. This model has some realism to it.

You'd have everything historical through the basic model. Great leaders would allow you the surprise religion change in adition to that.

But you'll never have more than one religion in a Nation.

Except in periods of transition, I can't think of any stable historical situations in which multiple religions have existed together in one nation peacefully as co-dominant partners. The nearest thing to that would be Buddhism and Shinto in Japan, but that has evolved into something that is distinctly different from both original religions. they fused rather than remain distinct. The other major example is India and Hinduism/Islam/Sikhism, and there we have a lot of continuing religious strife from time to time (the massacre at the Taj Mahal happned within our lifetimes). But even there, Hindus account for over 80% of the population, a comfortable margin over the next group (12% Muslim).

I'd like to see a stable region with, say 40% adherents to each of two different religions, or something even more poly-denominational, but I'm not holding my breath.

You'll never see people converted except when the government makes a sudden change.

Guilty as charged.

And you'll never see what could have happened if Europe embraced Buddhism, and everyone put their own spin on it like they did Christianity. Christianity divided significantly, whereas Buddhism is a bit more consistent (without being monolithic).

Also guilty as charged. And interpreting what civ X would have done to religion Y is, in my opinion, politically very dangerous territory. It is far safer to stick to what religions have historically done rather than hypothesise over what those religions might have done and build opinions on counter-factuals into the religion model.
 
menwia
you mentioned it a bit earlier, and i would like to reflect.
They don't become unhappy because they are a different religion, rather they are unahppapy because they have no temple, and such. Courthouses, banks ext work for everyone. Only relgious specific buildings and effects won't effects citizens of different faithis.

I asy it is far more difficult. First, muslim banking is not like western banking. i read an article of the first islam bank in England (Birmingham) is set up.they totally ignore intersts and intersests of interests. in fact they pay some percent for your money in the bank, but it is closly linked to real investments.
So, there might be some buildings that are useless in some religions.
 
Huszar - I think that's taking it way too specific. I agree, courthouses, banks, all things really would be slightly different - but their functions in essence would be the same. i think we can't go down that path - because if we were to take that approach then everything in Civ can be questioned - there must be some level of acceptance on certain assumptions - otherwise the whole Civ model is incorrect - which it is, but then it just wouldn't be possible to make a game if we went by the parameters of your agrument Huszar - its too too picky - not that your incorrect - its just there's no way we operate on that level of specifics. . .

but I agree with dh and I think to an extent wtih rhialto. You do lose alot in a static model as dh as pointed out - you lose that vibrancy of the slow converstion of different religions and each civ trying to convert others, that ebb and flow in a game which would make it so interesting - religion would actually be a force in Civ and it would reflect the world very well in terms of reflecting the nature of religion in our world. However, even though I do prefer a dynmaic Model I don't doubt that a static model would work. But then again its like you wanna drive the Ferrie or the Volkswagon. The main problem I got with your model Rhialto - is what is this notion or idea that you can't swap back to an older religion if you so wish? Maybe in the real world it has'nt happened on a large scale, but in gameplay I don't see why a player should be restricted from jumping from Secularism or monthosim to Amanism - excuse my spelling.

You could have a static model - maybe as a beginning - so one could test out one's model and to see if you get all the characteristics and buliding, units and wonders correct - and see how people reacted.

Then you could maybe move it over to a more dynamic mode - keeping everything the same, but just making it so it ebbs and flows instead of being static.
 
just a quick comment.

Looking at the poll figueres - I think alot of those who voted generic or traits did so cause they belived a real world religou model would not be possible for various reasons. But if a working world religion model could be created - I think that almost everyone would prefet that.

I'm thinking that the majority of use would prefer a world religous model, but because we are tyring to be practical and realistic might have gone for a different approach. But if it was a straight 'what you want for your christmas present' kinda of question and you could get what you wanted - I think most of us would of said 'Yeah - I wanna working religous model for my christmas present . . . with lovely pink flowers around the edges' or something like that . . .
 
@menwia

In my model, you *can* change back to an older religion archetype if you wish, by using a great leader. However, unless you had a lot of wonders from that older religion (ie going back to Egyptian polytheism would re-activate the Sphinx if advancing tech hadn't already made it obsolete), you probably won't have any particular reason to want to do so.

In simple terms, Animism is deliberately intended to be the weakest possible archetype. And polytheism is intended to be weaker than any of Monotheism / Dharmism / Secularism. For real-world considerations, these latter three should be made approximately equally good choices, although secularism should definitely be flavoured more towards boosting science than happiness. In addition, the earlier two religion archetypes will find their wonders become obsolete long before more modern religious wonders. This is all a deliberate but subtle way to encourage a historical path in religious transition.

Your main criticism seems to be the severe limits I have imposed on changing religion. First, for real-world considerations, you cannot remove control of religion type from the player completely. However, giving the player free control to change religion puts you in a severely non-historical situation. Giving one-time choices with great religious leaders was the best compromise I could think of.
 
Rhialto, thanks for your response. I acknowledge that there are special cases like Lebanon that are relatively stable with multiple official religions... Iraq is relatively stable, or at least it used to be, a few studies have said that it could work though (even though they acknowledge the possibility of civil war). But I accept that for the sake of simplicity, it's okay to ignore these special cases and just go with a one-state-one-religion model.

But you acknowledge that religion is converted in one huge monolithic sweep. While I'm not happy with the realism of this, I accept this as part of your model. I also accept the fact that it doesn't get too deep into the realm of possibility.

The question, then, is what's left?

You have four main religions: Polytheism, Monotheism, Dharma, and Secularism. You have constraints that prevent you from flipflopping your religion all over the place. You have the rare appearance of great leaders that let you switch to another religion, if you should so choose.

What does this offer the game, other than (1) a group of specialized wonders (e.g.: Polytheistic wonders), and (2) being on "Team Polytheism" so you can crusade against "Team Monotheism"?
 
From what I understand Buddhism is not consistent even in South East Asia. Southern Chinese Buddhism versus Shanghai Buddhism versus Koren Buddhism versus Japanese Buddhism are very distinct. From what I know some forms diefy Buddha while others them as a teacher. Some accept some buddhas the others do not. How accurate am I rhialto?
 
@dh_epic
Minor correction: It isnt team polytheism vs team monotheism. Within each broad category, you still have to choose your exact religion. Under polytheism, there is Egyptian, Norse, Aztec, etc. Thats referring to the set of wonders, not teh civ.

@sir_schwick
As I understand it, Buddhism does have quite a bit of variety within it, but it is still quite monolithic. fwiw, Catholicism also has quite a bit of variety in it despite other claims. Freaked me out completely when I attended a church service in Korea and they bowed to each other instead of shaking hands.

Also, while wonders are the bread and butter of my model, the religion will also be used to flavour the more mundane buildings. And if it can be done without inducing controversy, there should also be small modifers to the various productivity aspects (research, luxury, tax, memes, industry, pollution, etc).

Edit: Certain religions could also get flavour units at appropriate periods. Crusaders for christians. Zealots (elite infantry) at the same time for muslims. More controversially, a terrorist unit for late modern age muslims. The religious equivalent of an assymetric warfare unit could have a few functions similar to the cleric unit from CTP.
 
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