Worst 5 leaders and why

[Araqiel]

Although your language is a bit terse for most, you have some type of point here. Creative is a very strong early if used correctly and becomes weaker over the time of a game.

However, if one likes getting CULTURAL victories, it is a very useful trait. I am not sure it ever becomes a waste, unless the human player wastes it.


Some people actually like playing the game out into the modern ages. I enjoy playing the CREATIVE trait and going for synergies with certain Wonders (sistine Chapel/Hollywood/Rock & Roll etc) and Cathedrals.

It's all about playing style. Some people only have one (or maybe two) styles they use. Some of us like sampling everything at the buffet.

Actually the creative trait is not very useful at all for obtaining a culture victory. This is because +2 culture in your three chosen cities over the course of an entire game only comes out to a very small amount of culture when you need 50,000 points in a city.

That +2 is equivalent to an extra monastery. Meanwhile philosophical allows you to get more Great Artists for culture bombing or super specialists. Financial allows you to get more commerce, as the fastest way to pile up culture is through use of the culture slider and stopping research. Industrious allows you to grab useful wonders that contribute culture.

The creative traits is most advantagous in the early game when there is less religion and cultural buildings. It allows you to more land without wasting hammers on early culture builders. So I find creative most useful as a warmonger (don't you hate it when you can't use half a conquered cities tiles) or as any non-religous peaceful opening.

The synergy of creative and late game cultural improvements is an illusion. With the many religious buildings and +50% cultural modifiers the +2's relative effect becomes less and less. Creative is an early game trait.

 

[drkodos]

Actually the creative trait is not very useful at all for obtaining a culture victory. This is because +2 culture in your three chosen cities over the course of an entire game only comes out to a very small amount of culture when you need 50,000 points in a city.

That +2 is equivalent to an extra monastery. Meanwhile philosophical allows you to get more Great Artists for culture bombing or super specialists. Financial allows you to get more commerce, as the fastest way to pile up culture is through use of the culture slider and stopping research. Industrious allows you to grab useful wonders that contribute culture.

The creative traits is most advantagous in the early game when there is less religion and cultural buildings. It allows you to more land without wasting hammers on early culture builders. So I find creative most useful as a warmonger (don't you hate it when you can't use half a conquered cities tiles) or as any non-religous peaceful opening.

The synergy of creative and late game cultural improvements is an illusion. With the many religious buildings and +50% cultural modifiers the +2's relative effect becomes less and less. Creative is an early game trait.

Some excellent points. I stand (sit actually) somewhat corrected.


I have been warmongering a bit with the creative Civ's, but never put it together until I read your post. I found them handy for snagging some resources that would normally be outside the earlier city borders, but upon deeper reflection of you post, I can see where I was mis-judging.

However, it does end up adding a few thousand points of culture by game's end if you get the right mix of buildings and wonders. It only takes 50 two cents to make a dollar!

 

[drkodos]

The Sistine chapel COMPLEMENTS Cre? No dude, what it does is make it even more irrelevant.

Cre is really only useful in the early game for aggressive players who don't want to have to worry about getting a quick obelisk, library or religion in all their cities. The sooner you realize this, the better, because -- and I say this will all honesty -- there's no point conversing with someone who doesn't get it.

The Chapel gives you Two culture per specialist. I believe D ) this is added to the Creative bonus. I am not sure why you would say these two do not go together, especially if one is running a bunch of specialists and hunting for some more Artist GP's.


Would you ague that a barracks makes no sense for the Roman UU's since they are so strong to begin with?



Hey Gherald, how many Cultural victories do you have?

 

[Watiggi]

The synergy of creative and late game cultural improvements is an illusion. With the many religious buildings and +50% cultural modifiers the +2's relative effect becomes less and less. Creative is an early game trait.

Not an early game trait: It is an expansionists trait. If you keep expanding, no matter how well developed you are, the +2 culture is handy for a new city. The +2 culture just keeps accumulating whereas a new city - even in the late game - a new city still doesn't really produce initial culture (unless they have the Eiffel Tower).

Watiggi

 

[aelf]

This isn't actually relevant to my style of play at all (it seems the buffet isn't working out for me). But I'm just curious, isn't the +2 culture for Creative affected by modifiers? That means the +50% and +100% make it an extra 6 per turn. Not too shabby for a the second or third culture city to catch up with.

 

[Watiggi]

Yeah, that is true too. +50% will make it 3 culture per turn and +100% will make it 4 culture per turn.

 

[aelf]

Put them together than you'll get +6. That's equal to Globe Theatre's output. Quite solid.

 

[BadHorsie]

Did anyone establish if the original thread question was relating to your 5 worst AI leaders, or worst leaders to play as?

 

[GABB]

I suppose if you need 20% drama for happiness the cheap buildings are nice. Personally I try to stay as close to 100% science as possible and very rarely have any use for the Cre buildings.

I suppose that you are cottage spammer at all. With specialist economy you don’t need your science slider at 100% to research techs fast. Let me explain you. Your Science slider controls the investment of your produced commerce (from worked tiles). When you are cottage spammer you make a lot of commerce (again, from worked tiles) and you NEED your slider at 100% to convert this “commerce” in “beakers”. When you are specialist spammer, you produce “commerce” only from tiles beside rivers or coastal tiles, the remaining worked tiles produce food (to support specialist and mines) and hammers (from mines, plains,…).

Each specialist produce beakers itself, doesn’t matter your science slider. In this case, 20% culture slider mean invest 20% of you coastal/rivers tiles (not much money) in exchange of 6 Happy faces per city (with theater and colloseum) to grow your cities and support more specialist.

Can you see the power of Cyrus in the late game (exp = health, cre = happiness)?.

 

[Araqiel]

Not an early game trait: It is an expansionists trait. If you keep expanding, no matter how well developed you are, the +2 culture is handy for a new city. The +2 culture just keeps accumulating whereas a new city - even in the late game - a new city still doesn't really produce initial culture (unless they have the Eiffel Tower).

Watiggi

But after the early game all the land is taken by other civilizations. After that you're expanding pointy-stick style, which is why I like creative leaders when I go a conqueoring.

 

[Araqiel]

Put them together than you'll get +6. That's equal to Globe Theatre's output. Quite solid.

No its not. The Globe Theater also gets the same modifiers. Modifiers do not change the relative value of the creative trait which is the same as a monastery.

Also +150% of 2 is 5 not 6.

 

[Araqiel]

The Chapel gives you Two culture per specialist. I believe D ) this is added to the Creative bonus. I am not sure why you would say these two do not go together, especially if one is running a bunch of specialists and hunting for some more Artist GP's.


Would you ague that a barracks makes no sense for the Roman UU's since they are so strong to begin with?



Hey Gherald, how many Cultural victories do you have?

Because the +2 is equivalent to having an extra monastery in said town. The more culture you have in a city (from things like the Sistine Chapel powered specialists) the less relative effective the creative trait has.

The situation with barracks and praetorians isn't analagous, as experience for units offers large benifits when you gain additional promotions. So barracks help you reach those critical points that drastically improve your unit. Culture has less critical points (the border pops) and by the time you have the Sistine Chapel border expansion isn't an issue. Instead the comparitive culture between your cities and your rivals does. And the +2's cumulative effect at that point becomes very small.

 

[Araqiel]

I suppose that you are cottage spammer at all. With specialist economy you don’t need your science slider at 100% to research techs fast. Let me explain you. Your Science slider controls the investment of your produced commerce (from worked tiles). When you are cottage spammer you make a lot of commerce (again, from worked tiles) and you NEED your slider at 100% to convert this “commerce” in “beakers”. When you are specialist spammer, you produce “commerce” only from tiles beside rivers or coastal tiles, the remaining worked tiles produce food (to support specialist and mines) and hammers (from mines, plains,…).

Each specialist produce beakers itself, doesn’t matter your science slider. In this case, 20% culture slider mean invest 20% of you coastal/rivers tiles (not much money) in exchange of 6 Happy faces per city (with theater and colloseum) to grow your cities and support more specialist.

Can you see the power of Cyrus in the late game (exp = health, cre = happiness)?.

Truthfully I don't see how creative is all that useful for this strategy. If you're building a specialist based economy I prefer spiritual. That way I can use my food to obtain all the production necessary without much penalty by hopping from slavery to caste system whenever I need it. Theaters are cheap anyways, and colloseums aren't that crucial to the sort of strategy you suggest.

 

[Gherald]

Truthfully I don't see how creative is all that useful for this strategy. If you're building a specialist based economy I prefer spiritual. That way I can use my food to obtain all the production necessary without much penalty by hopping from slavery to caste system whenever I need it. Theaters are cheap anyways, and colloseums aren't that crucial to the sort of strategy you suggest.

I agree; Peter, Saladin, or even Isabella would be much better suited.

The sad truth about Cyrus is that he's not stellar at anything, and the few things he's somewhat decent at other civs can do better.

Anyone who believes Cyrus, Frederick, or Louis to be a good leader is sadly mistaken... they are clearly among the worst civs. The only good Cres are KK and Cathy; Hatty is just average.

 

[GABB]

Truthfully I don't see how creative is all that useful for this strategy. If you're building a specialist based economy I prefer spiritual. That way I can use my food to obtain all the production necessary without much penalty by hopping from slavery to caste system whenever I need it. Theaters are cheap anyways, and colloseums aren't that crucial to the sort of strategy you suggest.

I don't try it with Izzy (Exp/Spi) yet. I suppose that you suggest replace the colloseum by temples (to get Happy faces), this is

At 0% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 1 Temple -> 40 Hammers / 1 Happy faces

At 20% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 2 Temple -> 80 Hammers / 2 Happy faces

At 40% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 3 Temple -> 120 Hammers / 3 Happy faces

At 60% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 4 Temple -> 160 Hammers / 4 Happy faces

At 80% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 5 Temple -> 200 Hammers / 5 Happy faces

At 100% culture:
Colloseum -> 60 Hammers vs 6 Temple -> 220 Hammers / 6 Happy faces

Conclusion:
At 0% (and maybe 10%) culture: Temples win (20 hammers less)
At 20% (and maybe 30%) culture: Colloseum win (20 hammers less)
At 40% (and maybe 50%) culture: Colloseum win (60 hammers less)
At 60% (and maybe 70%) culture: Colloseum win (100 hammers less)
At 80% (and maybe 90%) culture: Colloseum win (140 hammers less)
At 100% culture: Colloseum win (180 hammers less)
And more than 4 religions in each city is a lot of spread religions.

I’m not sure, but I think that people that criticize creative civs in late game hasn’t use them.

 

[Araqiel]

Nope you can just use Hereditary rule or whip your colloseums. If you're going for specialist based economy you should be using all the happiness buildings. Spiritual allows you to do that without losing turns swaping from caste to slavery and back again.

Besides the comparision is somewhat invalid as they come at different stages of the game. Temples are available with priesthood, theaters and colloseums come signifigantly later. Use them all!

 

[Araqiel]

I agree; Peter, Saladin, or even Isabella would be much better suited.

The sad truth about Cyrus is that he's not stellar at anything, and the few things he's somewhat decent at other civs can do better.

Anyone who believes Cyrus, Frederick, or Louis to be a good leader is sadly mistaken... they are clearly among the worst civs. The only good Cres are KK and Cathy; Hatty is just average.

I find Cyrus is a pretty good if you want to bum rush at the begining of a game. Creative allows you much more flexibility in early city placement to get horses, and immortals are nasty if you are efficient enough to get them early.

 

[Gherald]

I think that people that criticize creative civs in late game hasn’t use them.

Either that, or they realize that relying on the culture slider for happiness is very, very wasteful.

 

[Gherald]

I find Cyrus is a pretty good if you want to bum rush at the begining of a game. Creative allows you much more flexibility in early city placement to get horses, and immortals are nasty if you are efficient enough to get them early.

How many times must we go through this? KK and Hatty both have a better unit and better traits for this.

 

[Araqiel]

I don't agree with that. Kublei Khan is better, but his unit also will come out signifigantly later. I personally prefer immortals by far to war chariots for early game suppression. The ability to fortify on metals and use terrain is more important that +1 strength for me.