Worst Civilization of the expansion? (Including France)

[fbass]

I managed to finished only one game since I got the expansion on Friday. I played as Indonesia in "Small Continents" map and "King" difficulty, in the end it was probably had the best Civ V game I ever remember playing. It was tough at first, building your navy to overcome barbarian raiding your trade route, while frantically preparing to settle neighboring landmass. I was an underdog (scored 4th out of 8 civs) for the first half of the game, until I become the richest civilization by spreading my religion (tithe bonus!), beelining wealth/trade techs and threw the annoying Germany away from my continents. With money translated into power, I allied almost all the city states and won diplomatic victory.

Indonesia is very map-dependent civ, but not necessarily the worst.

 

[Altisma]

Indonesia/Venice/Zulu/France are the weakest of the new civs.

First off Zulu should have gotten its Scramble for Africa bonus put into its UA. That's what the Civ is most famous for is fighting off 19th century weapons with no armor and spears. Considering that composite bowmen/crossbows are the main warfare units the UA and UB for its melee bonuses are worthless.

Indonesia is hurt by anything not islands. Best way to fix them is to make the UA distance focused or re-do the map scripts so at least Pangea/Continents have a Island start. I would prefer the map scripts be re-done to include a chain of islands enough for 1-2 civs to start their successfully.

Venice, they are screwed on science end of story. If you get a player in your game like Babylon or Korea who rushes everything science you will be stuck in the modern era as they build their last part. Only way to fix them up is to make the science metagame less overwhelming. I at least think if someone is in the information era any techs they researched a era ago should be 50/75% less costly.

France, the whole theme bonus for their capital is underwhelming. But they are least worst of the 4 at least.

 

[VainoValkea]

The French theme bonus UA seems strong enough to me, particularly because it kicks in early. Depends on how many wonders can one spam in their capital, true. However, what about Chateaus? They seem pretty decent to me.

 

[Wuddel]

Yeah your capital will be quite slow, but it will bring in lots of gold, culture and science when you get them UI up on the jungle tiles. I moved my first settler to a desert and built Petra. Production problem solved Also carnival + 100% culture/tourism boost if you win a worldproject like world games is insane.

Yeah, you are dead or out-city-spammed by the time this kicks in, at least on Immortal+.

 

[kaspergm]

The French theme bonus UA seems strong enough to me, particularly because it kicks in early. Depends on how many wonders can one spam in their capital, true. However, what about Chateaus? They seem pretty decent to me.

Chateaus are great to net gold and culture! Plus the theming bonuses of Paris are absolutely wicked!

I find Marocco really underwhelming. The Kasbah comes way too late, by the late medieval, a 1 / 1 / 1 tile is just not that interesting, and it doesn't even get increased yield later in the game. It does make for good Desert hills, and it also works like a Fort, but it still doesn't make for fantastic tiles. Their UA is really bad. Their UU is good if you are under assault and happen to be in early Industrial era (and have a Desert start), but overall, this civ just seems to be below-average in all areas.

 

[Thuellai]

Assyria, not really into early warmongers. Even then, they seem interesting - might give them a try one of these times.

Really loving Indonesia though. A few extra cities can pay for themselves by generating a full +12 happiness and getting Kris swordsmen is easy (trade a lux for a stack of iron and go nuts)

Bad promotions are only 2 out of 8 and you can always CS gift or otherwise dispose of such swordsmen. And with all that resource diversity and the fact that you're definitely going to have coastal cities, internal AND external trade are very powerful for Indonesia.

 

[Harald Hairfair]

Yeah, you are dead or out-city-spammed by the time this kicks in, at least on Immortal+.

Or start a large island map. No city spam, no early wars of annihilation.

 

[Createk]

Assyria is crazy O.O All you need are two siege towers early game and you're on your way to awesometown. Sure, you COULD keep those cities. But alternately, you could simply take them, hold on to them through the war, steal a bunch of techs, and then give the cities back for a tidy sum. Or spread them amongst others, all the same. Thing is, if you steal 3 to 6 techs, you already got such a crazy headstart its insane. Their UB isnt particulary great, sure, but those Siege Towers + Stealing techs = Awesome.
I'm sadly going to have to say Indonesia. They're too map-specific compared to the others. While the Zulu are one-dimensional, they do what they want to do very well. Morocco is a bit underwhelming compared to what I expected but they do well. Portugal is stronger then I thought. Venice is fun to toy around with, Shoshone can go out of hand real quickly, Poland, as boring as its bonuses are, has a very flexible game particulary due to those simple bonuses, and Brazil...well, they're a one-trick pony too. Just a very powerful one that needs some time to survive the early game though.
France and Arabia are both still really solid.

What do you suggest going as Assyria 2-3 main cities with Tradition or what ?

 

[Matthew.]

Try playing on large maps instead of standard. Regular continents script will often create more than two landmasses.

Continents+ and Fractal are decent.

The best solution is once you no longer need the achievements (if you are one of those achievement types) then download the tectonic map script. I usually need to reduce the number of island chains on that script because the default is too many. Great script and perfect for Indonesia.

 

[Resipsa]

Venice, they are screwed on science end of story. If you get a player in your game like Babylon or Korea who rushes everything science you will be stuck in the modern era as they build their last part. Only way to fix them up is to make the science metagame less overwhelming. I at least think if someone is in the information era any techs they researched a era ago should be 50/75% less costly.

Venice has several tools available to deal with this on Immortal and Deity; 1) Trade Routes to more scientifically advanced Civs, 2) Social Policy acquisition you should be able to get through Rationalism faster and sign RAs with the bonus since you are basically an OCC with benefits, 3) you should have more delegates and the able to propose and pass favorable resolutions to reach tech parity; 4) spies can be used to reach tech parity, 5) Use your superior tourism to cause civil unrest, 6) Sometimes you gotta kill runaways

 

[Resipsa]

What do you suggest going as Assyria 2-3 main cities with Tradition or what ?

Tradition is best, I would only settle more cities if you need the strategic resources, you're going to be capping cities that have Luxuries and buildings already built by the AI. Sure you can raze them but you can also puppet them and damn the increased tech costs because you get techs by capturing cities anyway, or annex them and use them for specific production.

I'm not a big fan of expanding past one city if I'm going for a domination victory unless i need the strategic resources.

 

[Drawmeus]

Think Zulu have to be up there - for a triple warmonger (UU/UA/UB), they're only a bit better at it than some of the pure peaceful civs.

Impi are great and all, but not good enough compared to Keshiks, Battering Rams, triple gold from city conquest, Janissaries, and a handful of others.

 

[Montezumas Hat]

I don't get it, does no one ever have islands on their Continents maps? If Indonesia is dependent on land, then France is surely worse - if you don't get enough production in your capital to hit some wonders with theming bonuses, then your UA is nearly useless.

Admittedly though, it's hard to pick out a worst civ of the expansion. Assyria seems limiting, but siege towers are nuts. Morocco, on the other hand, looks spectacular on paper, but in practice doesn't get much. A handful of culture by endgame pales in comparison to everyone else, and (while I feel hypocritical using this complaint) their bonuses rely very heavily on placement luck. In my current game, my Kasbahs are useless defensively, because my only desert is as far from my front lines as they can possibly get. I got lucky with city states, so I have five separate trades, but another start left me with no city states within range even with a caravansary.

They can all easily get screwed by luck. Portugal needs lots of different resources in trading cities, Venice needs some city states nearby both for trading and converting, Poland needs pastures (which I have been screwed out of more than once already). So I do see how Indo's UA makes them bad at all.

...the Kris Swordsman is a more reasonable complaint, since that is probably the most luck based element in the game. Says the person whose three most recent Kris all had enemy blade.

 

[Teholb]

Chateaus are great to net gold and culture! Plus the theming bonuses of Paris are absolutely wicked!

I find Marocco really underwhelming. The Kasbah comes way too late, by the late medieval, a 1 / 1 / 1 tile is just not that interesting, and it doesn't even get increased yield later in the game. It does make for good Desert hills, and it also works like a Fort, but it still doesn't make for fantastic tiles. Their UA is really bad. Their UU is good if you are under assault and happen to be in early Industrial era (and have a Desert start), but overall, this civ just seems to be below-average in all areas.

Morroco was the civ I was playing when I beat my first Emp game *shrug* I really like their UU/UA/UI. I found the Kasbah extremely useful for defending strategic resources that were close to tense borders (Kasbah over the only uranium site within my grasp + Berber Cavalry/upgraded). I've had nothing but great success with Morroco. But then again, I haven't played with any of the other new/altered ones, so maybe I'm missing out. I just can't pull myself away from Morroco . . . maybe I'll get bored of it after a third game

 

[Reshar]

With Brazil (and other civis) you can make your capital focus on production and make up for the growth loss by using food trade routes to catch up. Later you can switch the routes for gold. I think in the begining, a solid empire is more important than gold.

 

[Matthew.]

OCC with benefits

Yep. If other Civs can beat Deity with OCC, then Venice can too. It is obvious they were intentionally designed to not play like other Civs, thus isn't really fair to compare them to other Civs. Like comparing a helicopter to 49 cars--not meant to do the same thing.

Think Zulu have to be up there - for a triple warmonger (UU/UA/UB), they're only a bit better at it than some of the pure peaceful civs.

Impi are great and all, but not good enough compared to Keshiks, Battering Rams, triple gold from city conquest, Janissaries, and a handful of others.

You forget their unique promotions? The +1 movement alone is worth it, then throw on top 75% flank damage, 30% range protection, 10% open terrain defense, and 10% damage...

 

[JokerJace]

It is simply impossible to go on an early rampage in BNW because of how the gold is limited, the barbarian invasions increased and the diplomatic repercussions became more severe. The early game is more about stabilizing than ever. Combine that with the terrible UB and you get Assyria as the worst Civ of the expansion.

 

[Petiscator]

You forget their unique promotions? The +1 movement alone is worth it, then throw on top 75% flank damage, 30% range protection, 10% open terrain defense, and 10% damage...

Also -50% maintenance cost for Impis and -25% cost of promotions, which makes for some incredibly quick Insta Heals with the Honor Policy Tree.

 

[Villager720]

Also -50% maintenance cost for Impis and -25% cost of promotions, which makes for some incredibly quick Insta Heals with the Honor Policy Tree.

Yeah, anyone saying the Zulu are underwhelming must not have actually played them.

 

[VainoValkea]

If Zulus are underwhelmed, it's not because of themselves but because warmongering empires in general are currently disadvantaged.