I prefer not to rely on luck. But I stand corrected, hunting is not crap, but you better have a good other tech for early development or your worker is going to have nothing to do most of the time. See my 2nd reply on page 1.
Worst civilization
- Thread starter Fuzzz
- Start date
I prefer not to rely on luck. But I stand corrected, hunting is not crap, but you better have a good other tech for early development or your worker is going to have nothing to do most of the time. See my 2nd reply on page 1.
bassist2119
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2006
- Messages
- 218
Scouts always pop something good from huts, so I don't see where luck applies. After taking your advice and checking your second reply (sorry, missed it the first read through), you mentioned hating popping archery, implying the difficulty level still allows for popping techs from huts. In this case, hunting is the be-all-end-all starting tech - just consider it that your starting tech is hunting, the other base tech, and 2-5 free techs, most of which aren't at the far left of tree. As far as workers twiddling thumbs, it takes 15 turns to make a worker, 12 if starting on a plains/hill. That's plenty of time to research something to keep them busy. The only exception would be if you're also popping workers from huts, in which case yes, at that difficulty level, hunting is not as good of a starting tech.
DigitalBoy
Emperor
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- Jun 29, 2006
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- 1,346
Greece for the win.
I get Fishing and Hunting, supposedly the two jankiest starting techs, but they have their uses. I personally love Hunting. I should, as it grants access to the Phalanx, but aside from that, starting with a scout is great, and you'll need Hunting if you come across Ivory (or Fur or Deer). Hunting is actually one of my favorite starting techs now.
What do Fishing, Mysticism, and Hunting all have in common? They're the only starting techs that do something for you right off the bat. Hunting gives you a scout. Mysticism gives you the best shot at early religion. Fishing gives you the option of fishing boat as first build if you're on the coast.
I get Fishing and Hunting, supposedly the two jankiest starting techs, but they have their uses. I personally love Hunting. I should, as it grants access to the Phalanx, but aside from that, starting with a scout is great, and you'll need Hunting if you come across Ivory (or Fur or Deer). Hunting is actually one of my favorite starting techs now.
What do Fishing, Mysticism, and Hunting all have in common? They're the only starting techs that do something for you right off the bat. Hunting gives you a scout. Mysticism gives you the best shot at early religion. Fishing gives you the option of fishing boat as first build if you're on the coast.
2-5 free techs? I don't know about you, but I usually get some gold, maybe some xp or a second scout or warrior, and maybe 1-3 techs, even with a scout instead of a warrior at the beginning. I play normal/monarch/standard size map and sea level but have been edging to epic/monarch/standard lately and will likely go to emperor when I finish playing all leaders. And sometimes my scout gets eaten or something despite good odds. 2-5 free techs? What game speed and difficulty are you playing on? Do you reload saves? And even 3 techs is pushing it; I'd probably have to pop a 2nd scout early on to get 3+ techs.
Maybe your play style differs, but I usually go for agriculture and/or animal husbandry, then BW immediately after for an early axeman rush. So hunting and mysticism is far from ideal for my play style. I just don't like the idea of banking on a scout not getting eaten or so badly injured that I have to heal him for several turns in a row AND popping the right tech.
Of course ideally my warrior pops a 2nd scout on his first hut and I get the best of both worlds, but even if that doesn't happen, a warrior is better than nothing at scouting and can usually bag me some gold and maybe a tech in the process. Plus warriors aren't as obsolete as scouts when it comes to garrison and fogbusting duties.
P.S. Luck applies not just to not getting eaten/badly injured, but also to finding the huts before your enemies do. It depends on how far away you start, and where. There is plenty of luck re: hut popping, not just the luck in what you GET from a hut. Just to be clear.
Rusty Edge
Deity
That explains it. An Axeman is a lot like a scout , the earlier you use them ,
the more effective they become. No time for archers.
Ideally, I'd have a war in every era because it would feel more historically accurate to me . I'd like hear your advice on the particulars of an axe rush,
but I don't want to hijack the thread.
[shrug] People can skip my reply if they don't want to hear it.
I'm not the best player, or the best rusher out there, but my typical build order is pretty standard as far as the warmongers on CFC go: after getting at least agriculture and mining, get BW ASAP so you know where to plant your 2nd city and for chopping. Farm your capital (or pasture it or whatever). Choprush your settler if you have the forests. Plant your 2nd city near some copper. In the meantime you should get wheel for obvious reasons and pottery for granaries and switch to slavery at the most opportune time (I never switch to slavery till I have to.. not worth the early anarchy). Also in the meantime you should have found some nearby civs.
When I can steal a worker I DoW and steal one so I'm up one and he's down one. I then pillage whatever I can safely pillage, at least 2 squares away from the city. Then I find a forested hilltop to fortify in, at least 2 squares away from his city, but run for it if he masses archers against me. Sue for peace if he gets dangerously close to counterattacking or counterpillaging.
After the granaries are done, build some barracks and start cranking out a few axemen.. whip IF APPROPRIATE. Don't overwhip, it's not necessary because you have barracks for crying out loud. Do whip if your population is just exploding into unhappiness or something. Take two times as many axemen as he has archers in his capital to have a good chance of blowing it away in your first salvo. Also try not to step outside your own cultural boundaries until you are really ready to attack, to save some money on maintenance. I usually beeline for Alphabet at this point for extortion purposes later.
Some people don't even build barracks, they go hard axes ASAP and whip like crazy, but I don't like it. I like barracks and less whipping. Some people wait till they have 3 or more cities built up--I used to do that too, but it really depends on how close the civ is, the difficulty level, the game speed, etc. I think 2 solid cities with barracks is enough in many cases. Capturing the enemy capital will add a nice juicy city, so I see no point in having like, four cities already built by the time I overrun someone's capital. Also the earlier you kill a civ, the less likely you build up -1 "you declared war on our friend!" penalties since your victim is less likely to get friendly with anyone before dying.
After taking the enemy capital, heal your forces, don't build more forces than you need, and then raze (or keep if they are really nice) the rest of the enemy empire's cities. EXCEPTION: spare the crappiest enemy city till you are done researching Alphabet so you can extort some techs from your victim before finishing him off 10 turns later.
By the way, the moment your basic improvements are done, cottagespam like crazy. I start cottagespam on floodplains first and then grasslands. If you are dying for a wonder you can also spend your workers' time chopping.
Btw if you can't find copper fast, you have different ways to go. In my last game, I was stuck on a moderately large island with Egypt and no copper except in some godforsaken tundra, so I shrugged, planted a city to block off Egyptian expansion in my direction, and researched Iron Working. Luckily my capital was next to a gold mine so that research went by quickly. The iron was.. not much farther away from the tundra, UGH. So I planted my 3rd city near the icy iron and went hard swordsmen with a few axemen for anti-barbarian defense. It took a lot longer than I wanted, and the lack of other civs made for tech delay that made me not want to fight any more wars, so I settled for a spaceship launch in 1890 AD or so. You don't HAVE to fight a war every era, but an ancient-era one will help a lot.
Also, if you have a good UU, you may want to use it instead of or in support of axemen.
P.S. I went hard swordsmen because it became apparent to me that he didn't have any copper, either, just iron, and I knew I probably discovered IW before he did. Swordsmen suck vs. axemen but are better vs archers. He did have some horses but HBR is expensive, I was mostly swords anyway, and his capital fell before he could even think about war chariots.
By the way I find it ironic that after I blast the Celts on this thread, my next game (SP) I randomly drew the Celts. I was like.. ugh. I founded Hinduism with the idea that it would give me some money eventually via shrine and keep some other people off my back in the meantime. My scouts didn't find me much, just the Wheel and a fistful of gold. My axe rush was slowed down a bit more than normal, but it worked anyway. I declared war on the USA five times before they died, since they were so stingy with tech I had to keep letting them live to milk them properly. The Zulus apparently didn't get copper until a lot later, so I managed to wreck a couple of cities before finally coming across stiff opposition. They did give me cities with the Temple of Artemis and the Great Wall, at least, as well as a fat juicy trading city with double fur and double seafood tiles. Right as I was poised to take the USA capital, Isabella and Monty both DoW on me, but since I had such a huge army intended for the USA and Zulus, I bounced them away for no harm done and eventual peace treaties. However, I made a HUGE MISTAKE--I didn't convert to Hinduism right away since I forgot that I was spiritual, and if I had, I would have known that my close neighbor Alexander was pitifully weak since most of his cities got infected with my religion. No copper, didn't have IW yet, and by the time I realized that I still hadn't switched to Hinduism, Alex was on the verge of longbowmen while my army was on the outskirts of his cultural borders. I quit the game when I saw that he got LB; not because I wouldn't have won--I have easily won in every situation like this where I had more cities and troops than anyone and wasn't far behind in tech, either. Heck, I just finished whipping my courthouses and was just about to get catapults. But the least favorite part of the game for me when I know I can win pretty easily with my army and existing tech, but it's such a long slog on my slow computer that I won't finish the game unless it's interesting in some way to me.
Anyway, final analysis: I still don't think that the Celts are that good, but they weren't quite as awful as I thought. Celts are still easy to win with, but I basically didn't use their UU or UB, and their starting traits could be stronger.. BW/Copper town is somewhat delayed because you don't get Wheel OR Mining OR Agriculture OR Animal Husbandry. My scouts got me not "2-5" techs but one stinking tech, though it was the Wheel at least, and not cruddy Archery. So I maintain that I still don't like hunting as a starting tech and especially when the other starting tech isn't growth-oriented. Spiritual.. eh, I goofed on that one, it's okay but not as strong as, say, Financial. Charismatic was okay, though, the extra happy helped significantly, and the (effective) xp boosts helped some as well.
P.S. Actually Charismatic is better than okay. I quickly got 2 great generals which I put in my kickass production city that I founded primarily to block off the USA on their peninsula.. but they snuck a settler through before my borders popped (ugh slow-arse monument that I had to make since my religion took forever to spread). The city location was pretty good, but only later did I realize HOW good of a production city it was, and by the time I quit it was basically churning out CR-III Gallic warriors thanks to the two GG's which I settled for +4 xp. Normally I warlord them but I've come to hate Warlording one of my starting units only to see it eventually become a Mech Inf.
Anyway, final analysis: I still don't think that the Celts are that good, but they weren't quite as awful as I thought. Celts are still easy to win with, but I basically didn't use their UU or UB, and their starting traits could be stronger.. BW/Copper town is somewhat delayed because you don't get Wheel OR Mining OR Agriculture OR Animal Husbandry. My scouts got me not "2-5" techs but one stinking tech, though it was the Wheel at least, and not cruddy Archery. So I maintain that I still don't like hunting as a starting tech and especially when the other starting tech isn't growth-oriented. Spiritual.. eh, I goofed on that one, it's okay but not as strong as, say, Financial. Charismatic was okay, though, the extra happy helped significantly, and the (effective) xp boosts helped some as well.
P.S. Actually Charismatic is better than okay. I quickly got 2 great generals which I put in my kickass production city that I founded primarily to block off the USA on their peninsula.. but they snuck a settler through before my borders popped (ugh slow-arse monument that I had to make since my religion took forever to spread). The city location was pretty good, but only later did I realize HOW good of a production city it was, and by the time I quit it was basically churning out CR-III Gallic warriors thanks to the two GG's which I settled for +4 xp. Normally I warlord them but I've come to hate Warlording one of my starting units only to see it eventually become a Mech Inf.
scy12
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 5,181
Brenus is among the best Leaders from my experience .His trait combination is just amazing whatever type of victory you may pursue. The happiness bonus combines well with the other happiness bonus your temple and early religion will give . The experience bonus is a very good advantage. The ability to change from organized religion to Theocracy and Police state with no anarchy is very useful at times of war and peace.
DigitalBoy
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,346
My idea of a good goody hut spree is 150 gold and maybe, if I'm lucky, a free tech. The most techs I've ever gotten from huts in a single game is two, and I've never gotten more 200 gold.
I don't see how you can consistently get as many as three free techs. o_O
I don't see how you can consistently get as many as three free techs. o_O
Yeah I want to hear exactly how Bassist does better than that on a consistent basis without reloading or playing on an easy difficulty on Marathon or something. I would be pretty happy getting a good tech and 150 gold, too. Maybe we are both not using our scouts properly?
On a highlands map celtic warriors and duns are very effective for early hill defense and fast movement. Arabia is my least favorite civ now, camel archers are mediocre at best compared to other UUs that dominate their eras, and while not bad traits in themselves, spi/pro are a terrible symmetry. The madrassa is the only good thing about the Arabs, they really need a second leader because spi/pro fits saladin extremely well, so I couldn't advocate a change in traits for him.
bonafide11
Worker
I find that hunting is a more valuable starting tech in the higher difficulties because warriors are way more likely to get hostile villagers on the higher levels. And plus, since the AI starts with two scouts beginning on emperor, they are much faster to claim all the tribal villages, so you aren't going to get nearly as much. But with that said, on emperor or above, I find you have to be lucky to get even one technology, none the less three...
Rusty Edge
Deity
Latey I've been playing huge/marathon/noble /random ( I bought a better laptop, just to play Warlords)
There's more for a scout to find when there are fewer Civ's on a huge Pangea.
( not that I like those maps). But the point is your mileage may vary.
I don't usually have as much luck with my scouts , but I still think that they are a good investment to get a tech until the barbs switch from predators to humans. Although the returns are scarcer at higher levels, ( as I recall from a code discussion), the strategic resources seem to be ,too, or rather, the starting locations are worse. So while the income from scouts may be less, the knowledge of the surroundings may be more critical.
I can see that at the higher levels you might figure that a chariot is more useful once you have that tech & resource hooked up.
I don't automate scouts, so I can take cover or fortify when I see a predator. I go for the woodsman promotions, so maybe I can cross the jungle at normal speed when it's time to explore the tropics. I don't pop a hut when I'm a couple turns away from completing my research.
I don't automate scouts and go for woodsmen promos too, though I don't hesitate to pop huts when I'm about to complete a tech unless it's literally 1 turn away, as I don't like to slow down. I'm usually on Monarch/fractal and normal or epic. Didn't know that about starting locations; that's a good point that I had not considered. I retracted what I said about hunting being bad, it's okay, but if I get hunting as one tech, I'd like something like agriculture for my second and not mysticism.
Rusty Edge
Deity
I don't automate scouts and go for woodsmen promos too, though I don't hesitate to pop huts when I'm about to complete a tech unless it's literally 1 turn away, as I don't like to slow down. I'm usually on Monarch/fractal and normal or epic. Didn't know that about starting locations; that's a good point that I had not considered. I retracted what I said about hunting being bad, it's okay, but if I get hunting as one tech, I'd like something like agriculture for my second and not mysticism.
Just wanted to offer my 2 cents. I know you retracted about hunting. I agree it's not about how you use your scouts. Must be the many variables among maps & map sizes, game speeds, difficulty levels, etc.
I've got to review some recent friendly advice about an ax rush.
Lance of Llanwy
King
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2006
- Messages
- 710
The good thing is that I don't think they're BAD civilizations...but I have my own nomination...
Spain.
Spi/Exp Izzie. Not bad.
Conquistadors. Pretty damned awesome...but you've gotta beeline Guilds to get much use out of them.
Citadel. Replaces Castle....ugh. And it comes on Engineering, which, if memory serves, is on the complete opposite side of tech tree from Guilds. Yay.
But...the worst by far is the fricking starting techs....Fishing and Mysticism. No worker techs. At least Arabia gets the Wheel, which is nice because its expensive and eventually essential. Izzie; however, has to research every goddamned worker tech by herself. And she doesn't have scouts(hunting might be useful for camps too anyhow), so she doesn't even have the luck factor of popping something in her favor much. You really can't take advantage of Mysticism because otherwise you end up just like Izzie....a backwards religious zealot. Fishing and Mysticism is really what bones her hard, but the schizo UU and UB with short and coexisting windows doesn't help...
Arabia suffers because of the Camel Archer, which has practically nothing but not requiring horses going for it And knights aren't normally heavy-lifters, either. At least the Conquistador is ridiculously amazing...
Spain.
Spi/Exp Izzie. Not bad.
Conquistadors. Pretty damned awesome...but you've gotta beeline Guilds to get much use out of them.
Citadel. Replaces Castle....ugh. And it comes on Engineering, which, if memory serves, is on the complete opposite side of tech tree from Guilds. Yay.
But...the worst by far is the fricking starting techs....Fishing and Mysticism. No worker techs. At least Arabia gets the Wheel, which is nice because its expensive and eventually essential. Izzie; however, has to research every goddamned worker tech by herself. And she doesn't have scouts(hunting might be useful for camps too anyhow), so she doesn't even have the luck factor of popping something in her favor much. You really can't take advantage of Mysticism because otherwise you end up just like Izzie....a backwards religious zealot. Fishing and Mysticism is really what bones her hard, but the schizo UU and UB with short and coexisting windows doesn't help...
Arabia suffers because of the Camel Archer, which has practically nothing but not requiring horses going for it And knights aren't normally heavy-lifters, either. At least the Conquistador is ridiculously amazing...
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