Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Molybdeus, Dec 18, 2007.
You'll need Ethiopian Elephants for that.
And for the reccord, I think Pratorians can be as good as useless sometimes. How do I know? Because I happened to have had a few Roman games where there wasn't any iron on my damn continent! Yes, sounds rare, but it happens.
Of course, I'm willing to take that gamble.
Note; The ballista elephant seems to always get mentioned, then again, there is always that one guy out of a hundred who defends them because he can remember one time where he put them to good use
Whoever voted for "Fast Worker" needs to own up and take their flaming like a man/woman.
Then again why are they even in this list?
I voted fast worker.
I also think the Jaguar is one of the better UU's in the game. Movement is no small thing- 2 move over jungles/woods/mountains and defense/attack bonus.
Same thing with Guerilla for the Celtic UU- you get that 2 movement and defense bonus very quickly.
I agree that ivory is not a common resource and you're likely not to have it.
I agree that pikemen are more efficient in fighting against horses (if they are alone).
I also agree that usually AI doesn't make stacks with horses and other units (maces, longbows, etc).
However, ballista elephant is a GREAT unit, IMO.
Most of the power of an army is in mounted units, and if you can destroy them avoiding the other units, you have basically win the war.
It has its use, of course. It's not aimed for conquering cities, and perhaps it's better suited against human players (who defend horses with anti-pikemen units). But its potential remains huge.
Useless UU are those whose benefits make them worse than their base units, or are not related to their main task.
Jaguars are worse than swordsmen (mainly, they should be city-raider units).
Gallic Swordsmen receive a bonus which gives no advantage when attacking cities.
Holkan: anti-horses units receive no advantage from their first-strike immunity. It could be good if fighting against bows, but not against horses.
So, there are my votes! If I must choose only one, I vote Jaguars.
I disagree with this statement. There's nothing wrong with giving a unique unit an ability which - instead of enhancing the base unit's main ability - makes it useful or better at something else.
O..K... now how do you justify the "Fast Worker" is the worst UU ?
You have a unit that never goes obselete and gets your entire empire working improved tiles faster.
I suppose.. his logic is that it will never win a fight against a lion or wolf
Well, I have no idea why You've used jeniczeri on artillery and how come fight was so bad (city with high defence perhaps?), but the unit is great. Very versatile, capable of dealing with every tad backward civilization thanks to its bonuses.
As for the history, I'm not an expert, but jeniczeri were really worth their reputation. They were chosen from enslaved kids, and being brought up on sole purpose to be elite unit. And that worked. During the defence of Vienna in 1683 jeniczeri were the only units able to withstand european gunpowder forces, if not because of the charge of polish heavy cavalry Kara Mustafa (I think, didn't check on wikipedia) might have fulfilled his plans to conquer Europe.
Ah yes, now ontopic
I voted for the musketeer. So what it's two moves? It's still simple 9 str, like any other. It doesn't even start with combat one like Shaka's Impis. In 20 turns You'll upgrade those musketeers to rifles/grens and that's it for a great UU
I'd even prefer Ballista phants, at least they are interesting. Musketeers should be improved, like I don't know, bonus vs melee and 10str? Janissaries are better so far, not to mention Oromo warriors.
I voted Ballista Elephant. Just happened to get Khmer as a random pick in a recent game. I had already voted Ballista Elephant, but I thought I might aswell check it out. 20 map regenerations later to ensure I could actually build them, I have a nice stack of them going. Start a war, waiting for the counter stack to enter my territory. It's mostly horse archers and crossbowmen. My stupid elephants can't attack the crossbows until the horse archers are dead, and the rest of my guys have no chance against the crossbows. So in this instance, the UU's ability was a serious hindrance to my war plans.
Its an upgrade of a unit that comes too late to make an impact that you should never, ever, ever build in the first place.
Modern Infantry are better for amphibious assaults even without amphibious.
Paratroopers are superior to Marines in practically every situation for the same cost.
The best units are upgrades of units that you always build in the first place: Quechas/ Warriors, Phalanx/ Vultures/ Axemen, Praetorian/ Gallics/ Jaguars/ Swordsmen, Samurai/ Beserkers/ Macemen, etc... You benefit from them automatically, they're complete freebies.
Don't forget that the Fast Worker gets 3 movement from the start of the game, and it doesn't need all that Guerilla Woodsman rubbish. It can build a few roads on its travels for my Swordsmen too, giving them +1 movement pre-Engineering.
I don't understand people who voted for jaguar. A swordsman without need for iron? Well, not the best possible but definitely useful. And for those who say "it is useful only if no iron blah blah blah", about half of units on the list are only useful under specific conditions.
Whoops, I voted for dog soldier when I ment to choose the gallig warrior :/
Combat odds vs. archer fortified in city:
Swordsman [w/ Combat 1]: 93.8% chance of victory
Jaguar [w/ Combat 1]: 72.7% chance of victory
When your "improved" unit has 21.1% less chance of victory than the vanilla unit, that makes that unique unit worse than no unique unit at all.
I voted for the Jaguar initially. However, after seeing all the comments here about the woodsman promotion I decided to give it a try and as a result I retract my vote completely. They ended up being super-special-awesome with Theocracy unlocked (instant woodsman III). I'd rather label them as a top UU now rather than a horrid one.
You're not the only one who needs practice with their clicking finger. I notice the number of votes for Fast Worker has risen to two, TWO! This poll has become a farce! Ooohhh the humanity....
But camel archers are the worst!
(can't say about BTS one's since I STILL don't own it.)
I can't believe so many people think Ballista Elephants are weak. granted they require a fairly rare resource, but elephants are awesome and ballista elephants are even better. The AI builds all kinds of HA's and chariots and knights. The AI seems to build tons of these units, but you are saying they would only be good in multiplayer. I rarely build non elephant horse units and the fact that ballista elephants can defend against or pick out and destroy the Knights in a stack is priceless. These elephants are good enough to base a strategy around. Make friends with the guy who DOES have ivory and trade with him, or an early war to secure some for your self.
I don't build gallic warriors. I prefer axes to swords any day and unless I don't have copper OR iron playing the celts I would never make a gallic warrior. And please not having copper OR iron by that time there's something else wrong with your game.
Chalk me up for Bowmen, Jags, or maybe Dog Warriors as worst. I hate all three of 'em.
I would include Ballista Elephants but they come with an almost overpowering advantage that no one has yet mentioned. If my UU is the Ballista Elephant there is a 0% chance that I'll have to see Freaky Yellow Martian Dude in my diplomacy screens!
I totally love that special ability, it certainly doesn't make them top tier, or even mediocre, but it does remove them from the "Worst UU evah" contest in my opinion.
someone even voted for War Chariots
are we playing the same game?
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