Worst Unique Unit

Which is the worst UU?

  • Ballista Elephant

    Votes: 129 24.2%
  • Bowman

    Votes: 17 3.2%
  • Camel Archer

    Votes: 41 7.7%
  • Carrack

    Votes: 10 1.9%
  • Cossack

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • Dog Soldier

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • East Indiaman

    Votes: 30 5.6%
  • Fast Worker

    Votes: 17 3.2%
  • Gallic Warriors

    Votes: 37 6.9%
  • Holkan

    Votes: 10 1.9%
  • Hwacha

    Votes: 26 4.9%
  • Impi

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • Jaguar

    Votes: 53 9.9%
  • Janissary

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Keshik

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Musketeer

    Votes: 35 6.6%
  • Navy Seal

    Votes: 41 7.7%
  • Numidian Cavalry

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • Panzer

    Votes: 20 3.8%
  • Phalanx

    Votes: 6 1.1%
  • Quechua

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Samurai

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Skirmisher

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • War Chariot

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • Vulture

    Votes: 7 1.3%

  • Total voters
    533
The fact that keshiks, quechas, dog soldiers and panzers all have roughly the same amount of votes leads me to believe that actually playing a game of CIV isn't a requirement to vote in this poll. Or maybe some people just assumed it was a best UU poll? I saw the one post earlier saying that keshiks were useless. I thought about typing out a huge rant on why I think they're #1, but I'll wait for a best UU poll.

I voted for dogs. They may not be the worst, but I have played as SB a few times, and every time I would taken normal axes instead. I didn't read the hundred or so posts, but I'm sure the usefulness of being resourceless has been debated a few times.

Since Sittign Bull starts with excellent food techs, he can research mining/BW while building a barracks and spam resourceless CR I Dogs for a superfast rush. The Dog's are also superior in defending a city.
 
I've never been able to pull off a super fast rush with dogs. I'm no expert on fast dog rushes though, what's the goal? 5 dogs at 2000BC? Whenever I try it I end up against a 40% defense capital with 2 archers, and the AI will always whip a 3rd defender. Now you've failed a rush and have set yourself back a lot. I see people talk about the dog rush, but I don't see it as being superior to a standard axe rush. Maybe I'm just doing it wong, but I have a feeling that the dog rush gained popularity on prince difficulty when you can go against warriors.

As far as defending a city, are they superior to a CG3/D1 archer? Maybe against swords, but I doubt it against axes, and archers are much cheaper.

My main problem is just that it's the only UU that can actually be worse than it's replacement (I think.) Even the useless UU's like the ballista elephant and Panzer don't take anything away from their counterpart.
 
Normal Axemen are a very useful unit... I find Dog Soldiers more of a liability than an asset in the majority of my games.

For the potential of a resourceless rush there are Skirmishers - the prerequisites are cheaper (if less universally useful), they are about as good on the offense (no CR promotions, but having the same base strength and 1.5 natural first strikes) while being more robust (better at fending off counterattacks; especially if the opponent has horsies); Mali also has some great starting techs for a rush.

Having said that... I find rushes on the highest 2 levels quite risky unless one's civ has a specialised archer-killer or Praetorians (if you can call the latter a rush...).
Even chokes can be a gamble given the rate of expansion of the AIs; choking one might enable another one to become a monster.

Having said that, Dog Soldiers can be a viable asset on very unfriendly starts (where teching straight to Bronze Working might cause a game loss to barbarians otherwise). As someone who plays every start, I appreciate this and almost feel bad for casting my vote for Dog Soldiers as the worst UU.

For a non-Protective civ I'd probably regard it as an asset - axe rushes aren't promising all that often on the levels I play, and the only problem would be a heavier reliance on iron for our standard can opener.
For Native America with their absolutely awesome archers, I don't want yet another defensive edge in the early game and would willingly play without a UU.
 
A bad UU is a UU that is lower than the unit it replaces. I find the following UUs useless:

- Jaguar: step down from swordsman but is resourceless
- Holkan: step down from spear but is resoluteness, now if I was unlucky and get copper in capital can I change my mind and build regular spearmen instead :lol:
- Berserker: Replaces maceman and starts with Amphibious (useless)
- Ballista Elephant same as War elephant but "targets Mounted units first" :confused:
- Camel archers: resourceless knights with no combat advantage (only a minor 15% withdrawal chance)

I voted for Jaguar which I found the most stupid, why do I need woodsman 1 swordman -with lower strength- that I will use mainly to attack cities not to defend jungless. If it starts with something like CR1 it will be an ok UU.

Resourceless units are useful sometimes but that is so situational. If you get the required resource early will you feel unlucky?
 
At higher levels, I think Dogs can be useful for difficult starts where an AI spawns right next to you, and there is a danger that they will steal all your potential city spots. Whilst Dogs are weak city attackers, they can be useful to pillage, steal workers/settlers, and generally rough the AI up. The fact that they are resourceless, means that you can get them out well before axes, and if you can reach the AI before they connect horses, your neighbour could have some difficult times ahead.

Personally I prefer Holkans for this scenario. Also resourceless, but don't replace Axes (which could be useful for mopping up later). This is my one problem with Dogs, that they replace a more versatile standard unit.
 
In MP vulture is a liability. It is activly worse than normal axemen against other axemen. Since axemen and chariots are what are built most, for MP it is probably the worse UU.
 
- Holkan: step down from spear but is resoluteness, now if I was unlucky and get copper in capital can I change my mind and build regular spearmen instead :lol:

How is a Holkan a step down from a spear? Why on earth would you want to give up your immunity to first strikes if you had copper? :dunno:

Perhaps you are getting your info from the c4bts ref sheet. There seems to be a typo that says the Holkan has +50% versus mounted units. This isn't the case, it has +100% like the plain spear.
 
I've never been able to pull off a super fast rush with dogs. I'm no expert on fast dog rushes though, what's the goal? 5 dogs at 2000BC? Whenever I try it I end up against a 40% defense capital with 2 archers, and the AI will always whip a 3rd defender. Now you've failed a rush and have set yourself back a lot. I see people talk about the dog rush, but I don't see it as being superior to a standard axe rush. Maybe I'm just doing it wong, but I have a feeling that the dog rush gained popularity on prince difficulty when you can go against warriors.

As far as defending a city, are they superior to a CG3/D1 archer? Maybe against swords, but I doubt it against axes, and archers are much cheaper.

My main problem is just that it's the only UU that can actually be worse than it's replacement (I think.) Even the useless UU's like the ballista elephant and Panzer don't take anything away from their counterpart.

I exclusively play marathon speed, so that may be part of my bias.

Generally I bring about 10 CR promoted dogs and beeline the rival capital. I abuse the chop, not usually the whip (but that works better at normal speed). It does occasionally fail (like running into chariots) but not often. And I have been able to take our protective leaders on a hill early on with dogs.

Check out my Sitting Bull RPC to see, I Dog rushed Monty.
 
yes in fact I said it is a step down for 50% instead of 100%.
Maybe it was for 3.13.

It have always been +100% against mounted.
 
I exclusively play marathon speed, so that may be part of my bias.

Generally I bring about 10 CR promoted dogs and beeline the rival capital. I abuse the chop, not usually the whip (but that works better at normal speed). It does occasionally fail (like running into chariots) but not often. And I have been able to take our protective leaders on a hill early on with dogs.

Check out my Sitting Bull RPC to see, I Dog rushed Monty.

On marathon you can rush with anything at any level... The AI just aren't programed to handle the bonus to unit production.
 
Berserkers also get a native +10% to city attacks. Not much, but enough that I wouldn't call them useless even on maps where naval warfare won't occur.

*

Jaguars I actually find quite cool for an Aggressive leader like Monty... as many backup healers as I want. This is good if using several smaller stacks (which will often confuse the AI and allow me to take almost lightly defended cities while their SoD is out camping and toasting marshmallows).
Also, the AIs consistently fail to take the mobility from woodsman/guerilla II into account, again allowing one to take underdefended cities that would otherwise whip defenders. It's also applicable for worker stealing.
A minor point, but Jaguars are also cheaper than the unit they replace; Dog Soldiers aren't.
Last not least, any promotion that sticks means one doesn't actually need to fight during a UU's prime to make some use of it... a head start towards Woodsman III is welcome for both combat troops and healers.

Also, I don't find regular swordsmen as important as regular axemen: Swordsmen require iron specifically, meaning you can't count on having them, and being resourceless becomes more important. If I can't deny my opponent copper, an axemen fares better against a defending archer than a swordsman does against a defending axeman. For later classical warfare, catapults + counter units might actually be better than catapults + swordsmen.

All things considered, I regret being stuck with Jaguars instead of Swordsmen in maybe 10% of my games as the Aztecs, while I'd be willing to give up Dog Soldiers in the majority of my games (although there are a few where I'm very thankful for having them).

*

Intersting point about the Vulture as a liability in multiplayer games; I'd have thought being slightly less inconvenienced by chariots would make up for the deficiency against regular axes but then I don't know much about multiplayer.
From a beancounter's view, Vultures are +2 combat -1 shock while dogs are -2.5 combat+2 shock, making them look better on paper. They are also great standard issue can openers (against mixed city garrisons, vulture vs. axe > axeman vs. archer > swordsman vs. axe). On the other hand, I understand that in a game between competent human opponents specialised units might be more valuable than generalists.

EDIT: Vultures can sometimes be a liability on the offense if the first defender against vultures/axes would be another axe (this depends a little on the defender's promotions and terrain modifiers). From my experience, they are still a better overall frontline unit than regular axes or swords.
 
oyzar said:
In MP vulture is a liability. It is activly worse than normal axemen against other axemen. Since axemen and chariots are what are built most, for MP it is probably the worse UU.

5x 150% = 7,5
6x 125% = 7,5
Why is it worse?

Back on topic:

I voted for Jaguar.
If I could vote on multiple units, I'd add Ballista Elephant, Gallic Warrior and Panzer.
 
5x 150% = 7,5
6x 125% = 7,5
Why is it worse?

Back on topic:

I voted for Jaguar.
If I could vote on multiple units, I'd add Ballista Elephant, Gallic Warrior and Panzer.

Not exactly right, close but not right.

Modifiers (except combat) applie to defender.

So going against a defending Swordsman

5 (axe) vs 3 (sword)
6 (vulture) vs 4.5 (sword)
The axe:sword ratio favors the attacker more.

Against a defending axe
5 (axe) vs 5 (axe), they negate
6 (vulture) vs (6.25 axe), the remaining 25% goes to the defending axemen
thus an attacking axeman has the edge over an attacking Vulture

The benefit of the vulture is their superior raw strength versus archery and mounted units which is significant in my opinion.
 
On marathon you can rush with anything at any level... The AI just aren't programed to handle the bonus to unit production.

After so many years on this forum I am still not convinced about this. I agree marathon makes certain aspects easier (and others more difficult) but not warring once comitted. The window of opportunity is smaller though.

HOWEVER, Marathon certainly makes warring much more fun! :D
 
Against a defending axe
5 (axe) vs 5 (axe), they negate
6 (vulture) vs (6.25 axe), the remaining 25% goes to the defending axemen
thus an attacking axeman has the edge over an attacking Vulture

Thought so, but I wasn't sure. I've put this little math hoping someone will catch and clear my doubts :devil:
Thanks :D
 
Gallic warrior.
Think about it.

The UB gives them Guerilla 1.
The UU's bonus? It starts with Guerilla 1.

Just think about that for awhile.
 
Gallic warrior.
Think about it.

The UB gives them Guerilla 1.
The UU's bonus? It starts with Guerilla 1.

Just think about that for awhile.

Who can get the guerilla promotion?
Recon, Archery and Gunpowder units. No melee.
Since it starts with Guerilla I, the UB has no effect.
What's to think of? A defensive promotion given to a strictly offensive unit.
One may say - but Guerilla III gives +25% hills attack and +50% withdrawal unit.
Firstly Guerilla III is quite distant to get (even more distant considering that gaining xp without City Raider will be more difficult). Secondly City Raider III is better anyway. Especially for city raiding unit.
 
Gallic warrior.
Think about it.

The UB gives them Guerilla 1.
The UU's bonus? It starts with Guerilla 1.

Just think about that for awhile.

Gallics are the only Melee unit in the game that get's Guerilla promotions.

The Dun gives a free Guerilla bonus to any unit that normally get that promotion, archery/gunpowder.

Think about that!:D
 
Ballista Elephants.... the only thing they have going for them is the fact they are War Elephants, the extra bonus it gets isn't much use at all.

I'm amazed people at what people are voting for :eek:

13 for Fast Workers!? :crazyeye:
No comment :sad:


28 for Gallics :cry:
These are a bit of an odd one, in BTS they are noticeably better than in warlords (G3 gives 30% withdraw in Warlords and 50% in BTS), but even then I can't see them being the worst UU...

With just 2 XP you can have a unit that can run across hills quickly while being very hard to attack by the natural counter axes, making them very good at pillaging, worker capture and being a swordsman attacking more vulnerable cities.
With G3 4XP (as both leaders a charismatic) they cancel out the 25% hills terrain defense bonus when attacking and have a whopping 50% (BTS) withdraw rate, the same as a Flanking 2 Horse Archer making them capable of raiding better defended cities with minimal losses.

As the ONLY melee unit that can take the Guerrilla line, being upgraded to macemen that can do the same is a better bonus than it first seems.

Add to this that it can be built with copper and these guys are pretty good, one of my favourites in fact.



45 for Jags :confused:

Best Medic unit in the game. The 2 moves through forest/jungle is probably better than on hills early game, as forests is far more common than hills on most maps (the downside being that they get chopped away).

They can capture workers well, and with Woodsman 3 these guys are great at capturing AI settlers too :lol: as they are faster than settlers through forests (preventing retreats) cancel the defensive bonuses of its escorts (almost certainly archers) and 5 base strength means they can usually crush archer escorts.

Also are almost unkillable in forests and jungles so raiding isn't threatened much by axes.

They aren't as good against cities as normal swords and I don't think the speed makes up for that much unless a city is relativley new and has a single lone archer defending, but they do have a lot of use in raiding anything the that isn't heavily defended. Plus again the promotions stay. Not requiring resources is handy too.

If you get them early enough they even make good explorers, and they#re always good as scouts for you main stack as you can be pretty confident they will survive.

IMO a good unit that can be used for a variety of jobs. You just can't use them as normal swordsmen.


What's to think of? A defensive promotion given to a strictly offensive unit.
One may say - but Guerilla III gives +25% hills attack and +50% withdrawal unit.

So the double movement speed from G2 isn't useful in offense? Nor the difficulty to counter it?

Firstly Guerrilla III is quite distant to get


G3 distant? You only need 4XP for Celtic leaders and a barracks gives 3 :lol:
 
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