WOTM 04 - Final Spoiler
- Thread starter Gyathaar
- Start date
Alraun
Warlord
- Joined
- May 27, 2006
- Messages
- 222
A very large part of that is that more people, especially the better players, play marathon because it's better.
LOL, Marathon better? easier, true...
Alraun
Warlord
- Joined
- May 27, 2006
- Messages
- 222
HOF is all about time, so Marathon is better.
Ah, you mean that HOF measures year of victory, not turn of victory. And because of the imperfect match between turn and year, that gives the advantage in results to marathon games?
RobertTheBruce
King
I'm not sure but I think this is a bit off. Its probably a problem with assumptions.
Standard speed = 460 turns so 1922 is turn 332 with 128 turns of one year left til 2050. [Editted]
Marathon is 3 times as long = 1380 turns (actually 1200). If turn 996 is in the 1800s then the game would end near 2200. I would assume you would need 3 times as many 1 year turns to match with standard. This puts the 1922 equivalent finish date at 2050-3(118) = 1696AD for marathon. [With 1200 turns, turn 996 is 1846]
[Edit: so the dramaticly different finish date do have something to do with marathon. Favorable marathon games are finished much faster than favorable standard or epic games and its not due to the scaling of the timebase.]
Do you know how many turns there are for each game speed, I'm assuming Epic is 50% more than standard, Marathon twice as many as Epic.
Edit: Looking again I think the 1 year/turn start date is 2000 not 1900 on standard speed (400, 600, 1200 turn games). The core of my argument was the change in year/turn scaling at 1 year/turn so this probably isn't the source of the speed difference.
Edit 2: I will use Gyathaar's numbers for a better estimate and it looks like DynamicSpirit is right. I guess you would need to compare totally peaceful spacerace games on a lower level to see if the faster conquest of neighbors (cheap units/faster movement) is driving the difference.
quick: 320 turns
normal: 460 turns
epic: 660 turns
marathon: 1200 turns
normal: 460 turns
epic: 660 turns
marathon: 1200 turns
Alraun
Warlord
- Joined
- May 27, 2006
- Messages
- 222
Marathon has an advantage even without that due to your units moving around so much faster.
andybrown65
Chieftain
I came 3rd - but wiped out 2 people and had a bit of a go at Washington - loved me at the end of the game, I even swapped techs with him.
I couldn't resist sending a preatorian army further forward, nor could I resist keeping any city with happiness so that I could grow Rome. I came, saw and conqured untill my units got disbanded and I fled my nice new cities leaving them for barbarians. I even accidently declared on the Incans because I mixed there boarder colour up with the Malis. Hated me for 3800 years
Struggling to get any economy going I set up a super specialist economy - refusing to emanicpate my people for centuries.
Eventually I started to creep cities Westward and wept as the AI quickly took what had all once been mine. Still I surrounded Carthagian cities with mine and took 'em with culture.
Played this out till the bitter end where excluding India I got back up to tech parity! If only I'd've had spies I may have been able to get a time victory.
I couldn't resist sending a preatorian army further forward, nor could I resist keeping any city with happiness so that I could grow Rome. I came, saw and conqured untill my units got disbanded and I fled my nice new cities leaving them for barbarians. I even accidently declared on the Incans because I mixed there boarder colour up with the Malis. Hated me for 3800 years
Struggling to get any economy going I set up a super specialist economy - refusing to emanicpate my people for centuries.
Eventually I started to creep cities Westward and wept as the AI quickly took what had all once been mine. Still I surrounded Carthagian cities with mine and took 'em with culture.
Played this out till the bitter end where excluding India I got back up to tech parity! If only I'd've had spies I may have been able to get a time victory.
If it's any help, I've attached the spreadsheet I used to work out the year/turns. (Note, it's actually a .xls excel spreadsheet, but I've renamed it .txt because civfanatics doesn't allow .xls as an attachment extension. You'll need to rename it back after downloading).
godotnut
Inverted Unicycle
Cultural Victory in 1575.
I experimented with a fairly aggressive military cultural victory, where I captured most of my cities from Brennus. I didn't build the Pyramids, as I usually do, and built all of my religious buildings without buying hammers.
I had terrible luck with great people and received way too many non-artists, slowing me down. An optimal game might have been able to finish in the late 1400s.
I too benefited from the Marathon speed in relation to Epic and Normal. Quick seems to be the fastest speed for cultural victories, because the ratio of culture needed per city in relation number of turns per game is most favorable.
quick: 320 turns -- 25,000 per city
normal: 460 turns -- 50,000 per city
epic: 660 turns -- 75,000 per city
marathon: 1200 turns -- 150,000 per city
Although Epic, for example, has a slightly better ratio than marathon speed, the other advantages of marathon speed outweigh it. The ratio difference for quick games is heavily skewed, though. 30,000 per city at quick would be better for game balance, in my opinion. But I'll save that conversation for another thread.
I experimented with a fairly aggressive military cultural victory, where I captured most of my cities from Brennus. I didn't build the Pyramids, as I usually do, and built all of my religious buildings without buying hammers.
I had terrible luck with great people and received way too many non-artists, slowing me down. An optimal game might have been able to finish in the late 1400s.
I too benefited from the Marathon speed in relation to Epic and Normal. Quick seems to be the fastest speed for cultural victories, because the ratio of culture needed per city in relation number of turns per game is most favorable.
quick: 320 turns -- 25,000 per city
normal: 460 turns -- 50,000 per city
epic: 660 turns -- 75,000 per city
marathon: 1200 turns -- 150,000 per city
Although Epic, for example, has a slightly better ratio than marathon speed, the other advantages of marathon speed outweigh it. The ratio difference for quick games is heavily skewed, though. 30,000 per city at quick would be better for game balance, in my opinion. But I'll save that conversation for another thread.
Big Cottages
1030BC and this has got to be the biggest *cottage* I have ever seen (I guess there's some bug when the game draws cottages on corn)
Hannibal the Genius
Fast forward to 1462AD and Hannibal is demonstrating the vast improvements in AI intelligence in the 2.08 patch. As part of his campaign to eliminate me (well he was the one who declared war...) my forces have just arrived at the gates of Oea. Check out the defence forces in the town....
I'm particularly impressed by the strategic galleon, which he's cunningly deployed to prevent me mounting a sea-based attack, forcing my forces to make the long march from San Francisco by land. (This is Civ 4 we're playing, not Civ 2, isn't it...?)
DynamicSpirit the Even Bigger Genius
Finally, I'm proud to say the AI doesn't have the monopoly on great intelligence. Here's Seattle in 1434AD.
Doesn't look unusual - the thing is though, I spent ages on this screen because I wanted to build a market to complement that shrine. I just couldn't figure out why the game wouldn't let me build a market there. "Why on Earth isn't the familiar market icon there? Is there some rule I don't know about where you have to build it before the bank or something."
Yes I did realize in the end. Another reason to add to my dislike for Warlords unique buildings... In my defence, I'd only just started a new session after leaving the game a while.
1030BC and this has got to be the biggest *cottage* I have ever seen (I guess there's some bug when the game draws cottages on corn)
Hannibal the Genius
Fast forward to 1462AD and Hannibal is demonstrating the vast improvements in AI intelligence in the 2.08 patch. As part of his campaign to eliminate me (well he was the one who declared war...) my forces have just arrived at the gates of Oea. Check out the defence forces in the town....
I'm particularly impressed by the strategic galleon, which he's cunningly deployed to prevent me mounting a sea-based attack, forcing my forces to make the long march from San Francisco by land. (This is Civ 4 we're playing, not Civ 2, isn't it...?)
DynamicSpirit the Even Bigger Genius
Finally, I'm proud to say the AI doesn't have the monopoly on great intelligence. Here's Seattle in 1434AD.
Doesn't look unusual - the thing is though, I spent ages on this screen because I wanted to build a market to complement that shrine. I just couldn't figure out why the game wouldn't let me build a market there. "Why on Earth isn't the familiar market icon there? Is there some rule I don't know about where you have to build it before the bank or something."
Yes I did realize in the end. Another reason to add to my dislike for Warlords unique buildings... In my defence, I'd only just started a new session after leaving the game a while.
AgedOne
Emperor
My first write-up ended in around 30AD with the Roman empire struggling to emerge from economic strife caused by over-zealous expansion while wiping Celts off the map.
To be honest, the Romans look back on that era fondly, often referring to them as the good old days.
Things got a bit bleak in the next 1600 years, though not without some interesting events to liven things up a little.
Rome was definitely one of the lesser nations, although not so far adrift that we couldnt trade a few tech, assuming we found the right partner to trade with. But catching up was something different, that would take planning. The plan took the form of sending a force through the territory of our rivals, selecting an opponent far away, and suddenly doing them some damage. The hope was that they would be too far away to be bothered sending a force back against us, and the damage would set them back a bit. Do this to a couple of well selected opponents, and maybe we could improve our position in the world.
What actually happened was:
We chose Asoka as the first victim, and in 835AD, having marshalled a select bunch of chariots, praetorians and cats nearby, we declared. Within about 20 turns, we had taken two cities, done a fair bit of pillage and stolen a worker. At that point, we ran out of steam, they brought in some better forces and wiped out our attack force.
We asked about peace, having done the damage, but Asoka was not the slightest bit interested, and continued to be uninterested for something like another 150 turns!!
This changed the whole complexion of the game. There was never any question of trying to build another force to damage another of our rivals we needed everything we could build in order to defend ourselves against the never-ending stream of Indian forces that came to attack us from the west through Mansa Musas land.
No-one else liked us enough to come in on our side. They happily left us all to it.
So the years went by, and India looked large and powerful and angry. We evidently hadnt damaged them at all. Everything seemed to get stuck in a tedious rut. They wouldnt make peace, but neither side could make any headway militarily. The war in the meantime was consuming all of our energies and resources, putting us ever more behind the rest of the world.
About 1000AD, we were offered the losers kiss Hanni gave us a tech as a free gift, so far behind were we. Drama, I think it was.
By around 1200AD, we were in a situation which would have normally resulted in me abandonning the game and starting something else. We were well adrift of the pack on almost any measure you cared to use:- score, power, technology, food, productivity. Most forms of victory looked completely unrealistic. The only one that was even an outside possibility was diplomatic. If we bee-lined for Mass Media and built the UN ourselves, we might just stand a chance.
We also needed to throw back our opressors, so a concerted effort to build a powerful military force was also put in place.
Endless tedium of war v Asoka was finally broken in 1378AD, when Mansa Musa fancied his chances and declared on us. Since he had rifles, grenadiers and cavalry, and I was still bumbling along with muskets, pikes and knights, it didnt look good.
Between the two of them, they finally made some headway into our lands. A small coastal city Taodeni fell quickly. Worse was that Pisae finally fell to an Indian attack and was razed thus ending our presence in Lush Valley. Seeing this, Mansa was happy to make peace, although we had to hand over Arretium. That was better than just letting him roll over our empire.
Finally, we found the one thing that would tempt Asoka into making peace: we learned Astronomy and he hadnt got that yet.
We settled into a time of peace, trying to keep our science research as high as possible and head for that glimmer of hope that was Mass Media.
In the meantime, there was some excitement in the rest of the world, that I sat back and watched. At one time every other civ was involved in a world war. I hoped that it would hold them back while I crept up on the rails.
In 1553AD, peace broke out all around, and they looked over at little me. Time to get wiped! Mansa declared on me and dragged his vassal Capac in with him (despite him remaining pleased with me throughout!).
Mansa has tanks, gunships and infantry, while we have still got muskets, knights and trebs. Goodbye!!
We actually took down a gunship with a catapult, but lighter moments like that were a bit thin on the ground.
I assumed that this would finish within a few turns, and tanks would roll right through our lands. However, after roughly halving the Roman empire, they took Antium for peace and left us as a small harmless nation, curled up in the corner.
The final years consisted of watching the other civs complete their Apollo programs one by one, and gradually construct their ships. Also, Mansa completed the UN while we were still something like 80 turns away from Mass Media, ending that dream. There were a few UN votes to enjoy, all with Hanni as the secretary general, but he was always 20-odd votes short of a diplo victory.
In 1673AD, Mansa Musas was the first spaceship to launch, and we could put this behind us.
To be honest, the Romans look back on that era fondly, often referring to them as the good old days.
Things got a bit bleak in the next 1600 years, though not without some interesting events to liven things up a little.
Rome was definitely one of the lesser nations, although not so far adrift that we couldnt trade a few tech, assuming we found the right partner to trade with. But catching up was something different, that would take planning. The plan took the form of sending a force through the territory of our rivals, selecting an opponent far away, and suddenly doing them some damage. The hope was that they would be too far away to be bothered sending a force back against us, and the damage would set them back a bit. Do this to a couple of well selected opponents, and maybe we could improve our position in the world.
What actually happened was:
We chose Asoka as the first victim, and in 835AD, having marshalled a select bunch of chariots, praetorians and cats nearby, we declared. Within about 20 turns, we had taken two cities, done a fair bit of pillage and stolen a worker. At that point, we ran out of steam, they brought in some better forces and wiped out our attack force.
We asked about peace, having done the damage, but Asoka was not the slightest bit interested, and continued to be uninterested for something like another 150 turns!!
This changed the whole complexion of the game. There was never any question of trying to build another force to damage another of our rivals we needed everything we could build in order to defend ourselves against the never-ending stream of Indian forces that came to attack us from the west through Mansa Musas land.
No-one else liked us enough to come in on our side. They happily left us all to it.
So the years went by, and India looked large and powerful and angry. We evidently hadnt damaged them at all. Everything seemed to get stuck in a tedious rut. They wouldnt make peace, but neither side could make any headway militarily. The war in the meantime was consuming all of our energies and resources, putting us ever more behind the rest of the world.
About 1000AD, we were offered the losers kiss Hanni gave us a tech as a free gift, so far behind were we. Drama, I think it was.
By around 1200AD, we were in a situation which would have normally resulted in me abandonning the game and starting something else. We were well adrift of the pack on almost any measure you cared to use:- score, power, technology, food, productivity. Most forms of victory looked completely unrealistic. The only one that was even an outside possibility was diplomatic. If we bee-lined for Mass Media and built the UN ourselves, we might just stand a chance.
We also needed to throw back our opressors, so a concerted effort to build a powerful military force was also put in place.
Endless tedium of war v Asoka was finally broken in 1378AD, when Mansa Musa fancied his chances and declared on us. Since he had rifles, grenadiers and cavalry, and I was still bumbling along with muskets, pikes and knights, it didnt look good.
Between the two of them, they finally made some headway into our lands. A small coastal city Taodeni fell quickly. Worse was that Pisae finally fell to an Indian attack and was razed thus ending our presence in Lush Valley. Seeing this, Mansa was happy to make peace, although we had to hand over Arretium. That was better than just letting him roll over our empire.
Finally, we found the one thing that would tempt Asoka into making peace: we learned Astronomy and he hadnt got that yet.
We settled into a time of peace, trying to keep our science research as high as possible and head for that glimmer of hope that was Mass Media.
In the meantime, there was some excitement in the rest of the world, that I sat back and watched. At one time every other civ was involved in a world war. I hoped that it would hold them back while I crept up on the rails.
In 1553AD, peace broke out all around, and they looked over at little me. Time to get wiped! Mansa declared on me and dragged his vassal Capac in with him (despite him remaining pleased with me throughout!).
Mansa has tanks, gunships and infantry, while we have still got muskets, knights and trebs. Goodbye!!
We actually took down a gunship with a catapult, but lighter moments like that were a bit thin on the ground.
I assumed that this would finish within a few turns, and tanks would roll right through our lands. However, after roughly halving the Roman empire, they took Antium for peace and left us as a small harmless nation, curled up in the corner.
The final years consisted of watching the other civs complete their Apollo programs one by one, and gradually construct their ships. Also, Mansa completed the UN while we were still something like 80 turns away from Mass Media, ending that dream. There were a few UN votes to enjoy, all with Hanni as the secretary general, but he was always 20-odd votes short of a diplo victory.
In 1673AD, Mansa Musas was the first spaceship to launch, and we could put this behind us.
Nice score.CONTENDER
First spoiler
CONQUEST VICTORY, 915/920ad, 397593, 36H1M
Question: which turn counts, before or after the message?
Sidenotes
- all military land units were built in Rome
- our only civics were Organized Religion and Bureaucracy
- when we declared war on the Inca in 692ad, a trireme and a galley of our vassal America were transported to a 1-tile lake at land-locked Utica
- I did not milk for score (didn't even use the Great Merchant or research Liberalism because that was suboptimal gamewise)
- I had to replay half a turn (no changes) when the game auto-minimized in 708ad and would not come back up
One thing, how come you captured cities when only Rome built military and you didn't want to milk for score?
Then you must have never played for an early cultural victory.
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Each new city that I kept contributed to research. I refused the ones that didn't.Nice score.
One thing, how come you captured cities when only Rome built military and you didn't want to milk for score?
How do you know which one will contribute to research? Because when I play, it seems that every city that I capture my research becomes slower due to the higher maintenance cost. Is there a rule you follow to decide which city to keep and which city to raze?
If you pay close attention to your income before and after capturing the city you can see if it goes up or down. If you capture a city and see that your income goes from, say, +5 gpt to -10 gpt, then all else being equal you might want to raze that city.
Unfortunately it's more complicated than that. You also need to check your beakers/turn. If you drop 15 gold per turn, but increase bpt by 20, then you have an overall gain. But you won't see this when you have the choice to raze, since the city is in revolt, so it's not possible to ensure that all else is being equal.
I typically look at the potential of the city which is determined by the workable tiles. Mature cottages (i.e. towns), high yield production tiles, or flood plains increases the value of the city. Mediocre tiles => raze city. Wonders or unique resources => higher value of city. It also depends on what Civic you run (representation => nice with specialists => nice with high yield food tiles etc). If the new city collects a resource that enables other cities to grow, then the net effect is positive even if the new city is a burden. Assume you get a happiness resource which removes a red guy in two cities, then these citizens can increase the overall research (and compensate for the cost of the new city).
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
It further depends on the (expected) location of the Forbidden Palace and Versailles. 
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