WOTM 07 First Spoiler

[Obormot]

That's an amazing time Obormot. How did you deal with the economy problem? Caste system?

1. Whipping granaries & cottage spamming. It is better the hiring merchants: 1 merchant only gives 3 coins, while 1 river cottage gives 2 coins immidiately and the same 3 coins after 15 turns, plus it still allows us to grow.
2. Despite working some cottages, I still had a negative GNP for the whole mid and end game, but I was getting lots of money from capturing more cities. For example, lets say I was loosing 50 gold per turn at 0% research, but I was able to capture 1 city per that is worth about 100-150 gold each turn. I won't go on strike and would even be able to afford some research. That way I researched construction at about 0 GNP, burning gold I got from plunder, and I researched CoL with negative GNP.
3. I extorted Currency from somebody, and sold some techs to the less advanced AIs. That also helped a little.
4. As I said I delayed capturing crappy cities from the AI untill later, and took out their best cities at first. I also settled a lot of cities to push myself over the limit in the last few turns. My economy was OK for the most part of the game (i.e. loosing less then 100 gold at 0% ), and it went down to -200 - -300 only during the last 10, maybe 15 turns.

But You do have a point about Caste System. The gold that we get directly from merchants is not important, but getting a great merchant quickly and using him to get money may be a good idea.

 

[Thalaba]

I believe if Hannibal wasn't at war with Saladin, he would have ended up at war with you as well by accepting him as a vassal...however, if he had been at war with Saladin as well, then your war with Saladin would have been ended. That's only what I've heard though...in every case I've experienced where someone I was at war with became someone else's vassal, my war ended immediately.

As for if your war would have influenced his decision...as far as I've seen and heard...it wouldn't have factored in one bit.

Seconded. In my experience, if you are attacking someone and they volunteer to become a vassal to a third, neutral party, then that neutral party will join in the war against you. If they choose to become a vassal to someone who they are at war with, the peace will be declared between you and your enemy (not negotiated for profit, but simply declared).

Some fuss has been made around here that you can't choose whether to pursue the war or not at the time of vassalage. Personally I would like to have the option.

I've played several domination games where the person I was attacking would become a vassal to Civ B, which would then bring Civ B into the war. I'd finish off Civ A, then start taking down Civ B, only to have them become a vassal to Civ C, and so on. It can make for a very long game when you are constantly at war because the person your beating becomes someone else's vassal.

Incidentally, I've never had a civ that was being beaten by another AI approach me to become a vassal. It seems they only voluntarily become vassals of other AI, unless they capitulate to you. If anybody else has ever had an AI civ propose vassalation or accept vassalation other than by capitulation, I'd be interested to hear of it.

Thalaba

 

[MarkM]

I believe if Hannibal wasn't at war with Saladin, he would have ended up at war with you as well by accepting him as a vassal...however, if he had been at war with Saladin as well, then your war with Saladin would have been ended. That's only what I've heard though...in every case I've experienced where someone I was at war with became someone else's vassal, my war ended immediately.

As for if your war would have influenced his decision...as far as I've seen and heard...it wouldn't have factored in one bit.

OK, thanks (to you and Thalaba and others that set me straight). I was reading a lot into the coincidence that the vassalage happened right after we made peace, but now come to think about it it may have been more likely caused by the fact I took his capital that turn too.

If all that is true, I was not doing as well as I thought; I was screwed no matter what happened. Thanks for cheering me up with that clarification

ADDED: No, now I'm back to my original POV -- it is possible that my decision to take a peace treaty is what made the vassalage possible. As Gyathaar explains in this post, the decision processed used to decide to accept vassalage is different depending on whether the vassal candidate is at war or is at peace. I can't be sure that Saladin wouldn't have vassalized anyway if I'd stayed at war with him, but it does appear if he is right that whether or not it would have happened anyway, it definitely did affect the decision process for Hannibal (the civ that became Saladin's master in my game).

Man the unpredictability of vassalization can make it hard to come up with solid strategy. I like the extra aspects it adds, but I do hope the AI programming does make it significantly less likely that a 3rd party civ will accept a vassal while they are at war. Gyathaar points out that the calculation is different, but it is not clear if it makes that probability that much less likely.

 

[Infantry#14]

This is definitely one of the most interesting civ mage i have ever played cuz I never even play in monarch level or above. I took the starting position, and build my second city south, with 2 gold mines, a fish and eventually find out a horse. While doing this, my scout got lucky and pop into the goody huts and gave me 2 tech: fishing and archery . I manage to stay alive (and still is). By the time I amass my immortals, I see the greeks have phalnx immortals' arch nemesis!. To my east, I see the romans with the prateorins and zulu, although w/ impi yet. I decided to go after the carth to the north. Thanks to him, he settle many cities for me to use. In this game so far, I am at please with arabia (same religion) and egypt (same civic and some trade relationship, but different religion). Carth was first vassalized by Greeks, after I cripple his economy, the zulu vassalized carth. Man, there is still one tiny carth city on the tundra I cant destroy. It has been a fun and challenging same so far, and so far i am 1-2 tech behind and rank in the middle on the score board. I highly doubt i can win conquest or domination. Perhaps maybe go for dipolmatic or space.