WOTM 07 First Spoiler

[Erkon]

I didn't have autolog on, but I had a look at an autosave and I seem to have attacked in 925BC. I remember building a granary and a barracks as well as attacking with one more Immortal, otherwise our starts are similar. Of course, you are a way better player so you might have managed the whip a bit better.

The granary and barracks explains the difference. Each building delays your invasion. There are two main purposes for barracks: first, it reduces the number of units you loose (thus reducing war weariness). Second, it reduces maintenance cost (since fewer units can do the same work). However, it takes a certain amount of turns until the advantage is greater than the disadvantage with delayed units. As a rule of thumb I use in my games, the breakeven point for barracks (and forges) is five times the time it takes to build the building. If it takes 10 turns to build the barracks, it will take another 40 turns until it the investment has been payed back. If I need units fast, I always skip barracks (and granary). You have to come up with your own rule of thumb, depending on your style of play.

 

[spacemanmf]

Hi Erkon

What kind of odds were you getting on your early battles? What promotions were you giving your immortals?

Cos I had another play around, settling in a better location this time (on the hill S of the bananas). Presumably the capitals you were attacking were on 40% defence bonus? With any promotions, plus the 25% fortification bonus, the defending archers get good odds against immortals it seemed to me.

As soon as the cities are on a hill or have walls, it becomes very difficult to break them down without siege weaponry. Did you have vastly outnumbering forces? Did the AI do anything dumb to help (like putting archers out in the field)?

 

[Balbes]

Challenger - Conquest

I played an experimental game this month. The idea was to declare war on every AI as soon as I had Immortals, cut everyone off from every strategic resource, and eventually conquer their cities defended by nothing but archers.

The flow of the game was not as smooth and harmonious as I had hoped for. I still intend to submit it, however I expect to be beaten to the fastest conquest by about 300 years by somebody who played optimally.

4000BC

Spoiler :

3000BC

Spoiler :

Build order in Persepolis: Worker - Settler
Research order: Animal Husbandry - Mining - The Wheel

The scout headed south to the hut, then further south. A surprising number of huts was there on the map. Though Alexander's scout snatched one from under my nose, I stumbled upon four more.

2000BC

Spoiler :

The scout continued along the coast in a clockwise pattern, revealinng the shape of the continent and finding the homelands of my rivals.

Persepolis: Warrior - Worker Settler - Work Boat - Work Boat
Pasargade: Worker - Immortal - ...
Susa: Immortal - ...

Research: Fishing - Writing - Bronze Working - Mysticism - Masonry

Immortals:
Built-2 Active-2 Lost-0
Workers:
Built-2 Active-2 Lost-0

1750BC

Spoiler :

Using Open Borders, my Immortals quickly (road movement 4) scouted the lands of the AIs, looking for their metals, horses, and workers.

Then, I would position the Immortal to capture a worker and/or pillage a strategic resource immediately upon the declaration of war, and strike!

On a different note, both 'cheap' wonders were built in 1810BC! This really is Immortal level.

Persepolis: Library
Pasargade: Immortal - ...
Susa: Immortal - ...

1000BC

Spoiler :

I attacked early, with just the bare minimum of forces. The Immortals had to play zone defense, constantly being on the move, to cover several cities each - scaring AI's workers, and monitoring their settler movements. Having spotted a settler convoy, all Immortals in the area would converge in to intercept, then fan out again.

Top left: even a captured worker is helping keep watch over a part of Egyptian territory. This is appreciated, with my Immortal network stretched so very thin.

I had dispatched 2 or 3 Immortals towards every rival. Shaka kept sending in waves of archers from the East, where he had built a city in the jungle. So I had to assemble a homeland defense force, too. Only then could I catch my breath (just a little) and divert some production to barracks and a settler.

Carthage is a capital on a hill, and guarded by 5 archers, some of them City Defender. I decided that the cost of storming it with Immortals only would be prohibitive, and catapults would be necessary.

Persepolis hired 2 scientists specialists, to generate a Great Scientist and lightbulb Mathematics. Meanwhile, money was being accumulated at 0% research, for the eventual full-speed run to Construction.

Going for Catapults was, in essence, admitting the failure of the original plan. When the catapult forms the backbone of your army, it does not matter if the enemy has archers, or axes, or swords, or elephants - they all succumb to the massive collateral damage. It has no counter until the Longbow.

So, in the final analysis, it made sense to simply beeline to Catapults, without the massive slowdown suffered by my still weak economy because of the inside-enemy-borders supply costs for all those Immortals.

Immortals:
Built-18 Active-15 Lost-3
Workers:
Built-2 Active-8 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-13 Worker/Settler-6 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-3 Razed-1

(...message split - continued in the next post...)

 

[Balbes]

500BC

Spoiler :

Ecbatana was founded, primarily to work the riverside cottages and finance the war effort.
I never researched or otherwise acquired Iron Working to clear all that jungle.

The Great Generals just kept coming. I settled 3 in the hammer-rich Susa; Persepolis and Pasargade would eventually get 2 each.

I did manage to knock out several minor cities with Immortals; AI capitals such as Athens, though, would definitely require cat support.

Research: Masonry - Pottery - Mathematics - Construction - off

Immortals:
Built-31 Active-24 Lost-7
Workers:
Built-2 Active-13 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-55 Worker/Settler-15 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-4 Razed-4

1AD

Spoiler :

Research has been turned off for good. A steady stream of Catapults is pouring southwards. War weariness is becoming an issue - I already have Monuments built everywhere, nothing else I can do about it short of wiping out the rival nations.

Mecca and Medina fell; Damascus is under siege. Though Medina and Damascus are holy cities, and situated so close to Persia, for some reason no religions ever spread anywhere. This could have helped with the unhappiness...

Look at all these forests! At least a three-fold increase of the size of my army - if a little late.


Resource denial is still as important a duty as ever in the distant corners of the world.

Immortals:
Built-37 Active-20 Lost-17
Catapults:
Built-14 Active-10 Lost-4
Workers:
Built-2 Active-14 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-134 Worker/Settler-19 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-6 Razed-4

125AD

Spoiler :

Encountering the first enemy Catapult was an unpleasant surprise.
They do not require any resources to build (neither do Longbows).

500AD

Spoiler :

Saladin and Alexander are no more; Caesar, reeling under heavy blows. Now Hannibal is preparing to meet his fate.

The river between Leptis and Susa had witnessed some of the bloodiest catapult combat ever. Cats were battling cats on grasslands, plains, hills, forests and jungle - very often at exactly 50% odds.

This also meant 50% losses; but Hannibal is out of cats and out of time. My stacks cannot be stopped. Even so, every small city of the enemy's now has got a sizable garrison...

And the capitals, much, much, more.

Immortals:
Built-51 Active-27 Lost-24
Catapults:
Built-48 Active-31 Lost-17
Workers:
Built-2 Active-8 Lost-5

Kills:
Archer-193 Catapult-17 Worker/Settler-35 Chariot-3

Cities:
Owned-8 Razed-8

 

[Harbourboy]

Brilliant, Balbes. Thanks for the detailed analysis. This should help show people that are many different ways to skin a cat. Your approach to this game could not have been any more different to mine.

For example, my immortal stats would have been: Built 12, Active 11, Lost 1.

 

[spacemanmf]

Great moves, Balbes. A very strategic, co-ordinated and ambitious war effort!

Can I ask where the second settler build was slotted in? I can't see it.

 

[Balbes]

2000BC. I'd mistakenly written "Worker" instead - now corrected.

 

[The Mad Swede]

@Erkon and killercane: Thanks a lot guys, that really is good advice that I am sure more people than I have use for.

I have been playing my starts like this in Prince and Monarch games and have done really well. Of course I need to adapt for higher difficulty levels and your advice makes perfect sense.

 

[Erkon]

The chronicles of Erkon, Mighty leader of Persia - The real story.

This is the world as I knew it in 1030 BC (I have just captured Mecca)

Spoiler :

The red arrow shows the movement of the troops.

Spoiler :

The first wave attacked two archers (at 98%) that were out in the open that Saladin moved to reinforce his capital. Medina had four archers. I lost three immortals (15%, 8%, 19%) and won at 56%, 80%, 76%, 85%. (1390 BC)

Then I got another two archers in the open.
The attack against Damascus was against three archers (1150 BC). All wins (59%, 24%, 54%). Then I got another archer in the open.

The new Immortals coming from the home lands replaced the units that had to heal, and when both Medina and Damascus was captured, I piled up Immortals against Mecca from all directions. I had several Immortals scouting the lands of the other civs, and they all converged at the same time towards Mecca.

Mecca had five defenders. I lost 4 Immortals (6%, 6%, 26%, 21%) and 2 retreated (6%, 15%). Wins was at 28%, 54%, 90%, 94%, 98%. My last unit was an archer. I had no other units available after the final battle <lol>

Spoiler :

I got a Great General in the middle of the war, and was not far away from getting another one. I settled the GG for +2XP.

I didn't want to waste one turn for anarchy, since I didn't have any suitable tile to work in Persepolis, and I knew WW would drop after the war. So, I didn't switch to slavery.

Spoiler :

I didn't prioritize barracks at the early years, but since I had to wait for units to heal before attacking Alexander, I judged that I could start barracks at Pasargadae.

Spoiler :

My relations to the other were ok:

Spoiler :

I researched the alphabet in 1270 BC (first A.H, Mining, Wheel, Archery, Fishing, Writing) and got Pottery, Sailing, Mysticism, B.W, Masonry, Polytheism, and Priesthood.

Spoiler :

I was in the middle of the tech race

Spoiler :

Other info regarding the state of the empire:

Spoiler :

And the graphs:

Spoiler :

And this is the build queue:

3460 BC Worker
3160 BC Warrior
2710 BC Settler
2620 BC Warrior
2440 BC Archer
2290 BC Archer
2230 BC Work Boat
2110 BC Immortal
1990 BC Work Boat
1930 BC Archer
1840 BC Immortal
1810 BC Immortal
1690 BC Immortal
1660 BC Immortal
1540 BC Immortal
1510 BC Immortal
1420 BC Immortal
1390 BC Immortal
1300 BC Immortal
1300 BC Immortal
1180 BC Immortal
1180 BC Immortal
1090 BC Immortal
1060 BC Immortal
1060 BC Archer
​

17 Archers were defeated, and I lost 7 Immortals in the war.

 

[Jove]

@Harbourboy: Thanks for the compliment

@Balbes & Ekron: Both your games look like lots of fun. And thanks for the great spoilers, very easy to follow

 

[Htadus]

When am I going to stop playing real late at night?

Does any one know how you can dow on a civ by just trying to contact them? I just did but do not know how.

I was doing well too on my first immortal Immortals.

Once I stop crying, I will post the essay I was putting togather.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

When am I going to stop playing real late at night?

Does any one know how you can dow on a civ by just trying to contact them? I just did but do not know how.

I was doing well too on my first immortal Immortals.

Most likely you misclicked. The comment 'When am I going to stop playing real late at night?' perhaps makes that more likely?

Are you sure they didn't declare war on you just by coincidence at the same time as you tried to contact them?

Once I stop crying, I will post the essay I was putting togather.

Lots of sympathy

 

[Harbourboy]

I have a similar blunder in my game as well, but that will have to wait for the next spoiler.

 

[Htadus]

@Balbes & Ekron: Both your games look like lots of fun. And thanks for the great spoilers, very easy to follow

I second that. Are you both going for a fast conquest? Or would you back off the assult once the Immortals become obsolete?

Most likely you misclicked. The comment 'When am I going to stop playing real late at night?' perhaps makes that more likely?

Are you sure they didn't declare war on you just by coincidence at the same time as you tried to contact them?

I just found out either (already forgot) control or alt key plus clicking on the Civ to contact does the trick. It does not even ask you if I want to declare. It just does. Grrrrr. Oh well, it was not as if I would win with flying colors. All I am going to do is at the incident.....after couple of days from now. Oops its 2 AM and work awaits at 8AM.

@Harbourboy. I am guessing you are a better man than I and did not press the power button and walk away sulking?

 

[The Mad Swede]

I didn't want to waste one turn for anarchy, since I didn't have any suitable tile to work in Persepolis, and I knew WW would drop after the war. So, I didn't switch to slavery.

I don't understand this. To me Persepolis looked ripe for some serious whipping. Could you explain?

 

[Erkon]

I don't understand this. To me Persepolis looked ripe for some serious whipping. Could you explain?

Poor explanation from me and perhaps poor play as well. I had one angry man from WW and one from population. I wanted to work the five tiles, and I think that the whip-unrest would have pushed me below the five tiles. I'll have to check the savefile though to get confirmation. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Erkon]

I second that. Are you both going for a fast conquest? Or would you back off the assult once the Immortals become obsolete?

At 500 AD I was going of cultural victory. I took the decision at about 800 BC.

 

[Vynd]

Very impressive, Balbes and Erkon. Perhaps it is as you say, Balbes, and your execution wasn't perfect. But it was a darn sight better than mine, let me tell you. I think your spoiler should prove to any remaining doubters out there that declaring war early and often is an excellent strategy.

 

[ungy]

Hey Balbes--great writeup and very interesting strategy.

One question--what about WW? I would think even with pretty low losses you would build that up pretty quick. Did you get HR at some point?

 

[Balbes]

Perhaps it is as you say, Balbes, and your execution wasn't perfect. ... should prove to any remaining doubters out there that declaring war early and often is an excellent strategy.

Um, I think my execution was pretty close to perfect; my point was that the strategy itself wasn't as good as expected, and the experiment prove that. Here's how I think the fastest finisher will have played: The early development's pretty much the same, but instead of sending 2 immortals apiece to pillage every civ's lands, concentrate those 12 immortals against Alexander and Saladin, take all their cities by 1500BC - and keep them. Build cottages around Athens - and after the initial maintenance hit, they'll provide you with enough gold to support 5 or 6 loss-making but hammer-rich cities, the list starting with Sparta. Then tech to catapults and chop yourself a cat army with all those forests. You won't have to care if the enemy has war chariots, impi, or what have you. Though you may still want to pillage Caesar's Iron.

One question--what about WW? I would think even with pretty low losses you would build that up pretty quick. Did you get HR at some point?

I think the highest WW I ever had was -2 happy.