WOTM 10 First Spoiler

[MarkM]

This is the first game since Warlords came out that I played with vassal states on. So what happens? Civ A asks me to join war against Civ B. Because I want the shared struggle diplo points and civ B is very weak, I agree. Apparently, on the very same turn, Civ B then capitulates to Civ A and I'm at war with Civ A. Maybe this should be posted in the bug forum?

But it's not a bug -- it's been noted in previous WOTM reports. But the "over the top" nature of this scenario (so many civs on such a small map, packed so close together) exposed a lot of flaws in the civ design to me. Not just with vassals, but with more fundamental things like cultural borders, with so many capital cities spaced so close together. But that's for the next thread, since it didn't become a big issue until after 500ad.

 

[SoxSexSax]

Shaka invaded me in 1500 BC with 2 archers when I was going for the pyramid gambit...had taken a calculated risk and only had one warrior at the time (great calculating Sox!)...short game!

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Expanded north and took out Stalin in the early ADs. Avoided wonders since I wasn't sure when the AI would build them.

Then the wheels fall off. Shaka, Mehmed, Isabella, and Monty all declare war in a short period when I switched from military to infrastructure. I capture Moscow and Novgorad 2 more times each before its all over. The Ai did a good job pushing stacks over the border immediately after declaring war. At 500AD Mehmed and Isabella are gone (Hannibal finished Isabella for me) and Shaka is almost gone. I'm in a solid position with by far the largest empire. I will win the game but I've wasted a lot of time and hammers, annoyed most of the AIs, and am far behind Ramesses in research. I will probably will head for chemistry and kill everyone but Ramesses for domination.

 

[azzaman333]

I quit this game at about 1000AD when I had an average diplo level of -5 whilst most AI's at least +2 most other AI's, despite never declaring a state religion and giving in to most demands.

 

[Adama]

This is my very first WarLords game {ever}. Just loaded it onto my computer last weekend. I have previously played maybe a half dozen Civ IV games. I have attempted the past three monthly vanilla GOTM’s and finished ‘on time’ this month, so I made the normal addict’s classical error and wandered over here to the WOTM forum… {a late start, and may not be able to finish due to RL travel and issues}. Those who know me from the GOTM will recognize my many questions asked; thanks to those of you in advance who take the time to set me straight and fill me in with the answers. I played Adventurer Class (AC).

4000 BC Settled in place and started WarriorWorker Whip Settler after Bronze Working (BW) Galley. [AC started with workboat ! Nice…]

BW—Sailing—Mysticism—Meditation—Priesthood—Masonry—Wheel—Pottery—Writing-- Alphabet

2530 Founded York between the Copper and Gems on mainland coast.

I would build two Triremes to try and protect my Galley and the transport routes. That’s my entire navy at 500 AD also. I hope to get Caravels after 500AD.

2410 BC Began building the ORACLE, despite the fact that I was probably mixing strategies between hopeful warmongering and building infrastructure.

The neighbors had been dropping by regularly to say “Hi” and point out where they would like for me to build improvements in their future city … I promised to be a good steward and develop the site properly if they would give me ‘three steps to the door’.

1510 BC I completed the ORACLE ! {I was pleasantly surprised}. I chose Metal Casting. Despite an excellent write-up by EEO in the pre-game thread, I didn’t attempt a CS or more difficult slingshot. Is there any good reason I should have chosen Code of Laws (and religion I didn’t really need to found) over MC?

1120 BC Sal asked for tribute and I gave him sailing; Monty asked for a fish resource and I gave it to him. I would soon stop granting favors and get everyone riled at me.

985 BC Mehmed cancelled open borders with me: omen of things to come.

850 BC Good ol’ Monty DOW’ed Brennus {I think this was first war}.

775 BC Mehmed became a nuisance asking for Alphabet; I refused him.

745 BC Hannibal of Carthage fame asked for MC; I refused him as well. Ramesses wanted me to cancel my Monty deal; I sided with Ramesses and did.

730 BC Hannibal cancelled Open Borders with me.

700 BC Asoka asks for MC, and I also refuse him.

670 BC M&M DOW’ed Brennus also.
My first GP {a Great Prophet, Rama-Krishna} was born.

QUESTION #1: What would you do with your first prophet? I had a shot at Theology (and probably founding the Christian religion), but since I didn’t plan on having a state religion (for diplomatic reasons), I opted to make him a resident prophet contributing 2H’s & $5g per turn. Right decision, wrong move or just noob ignorance on my part?

655 BC In classical noob style, I DOW’ed Brennus (he was far removed from me as far as I knew) just in order to gain brownie diplo points with Monty & M&M (my more dangerous neighbors).

Now I finally realize that I have room for a third city on my home island and ‘finally’ start another settler. Throughout this period until 500 AD, many civs asked me to stop trading with my main bud, M&M. I always refused, and Mansa Musa became my best and often only trading partner. (@AU Armageddon: I decided on M&M by noob luck, and have been happy. It was nice to read your comment about M&M teching fast; good info to know, I suppose you mean in most game situations, not this one. I also tried to keep M&M happy, siding with him against all comers).

595 BC M&M asked for Monotheism. Realistic, and I gave it to him.

Around here, I started noticing that Warrior units were costing me $1gpt to maintain and debated deleting, even before I used them in Hereditary Rule for ‘portable happiness.’ As it turned out, I even later paid to upgrade them to Macemen.

490 BC Third city, Nottingham, founded on the western tip of starting ilse.

460 BC Asoka asked me to join in war against Augustus Ceasar, and I did. Already two wars, and not a single combat to show for it. And, this noob forgets how many friends will be diplomatically upset with me for “declaring war on their friend.”

445 BC Ahhh.. my first GreatGeneralPoint .. I killed a Brennus scout who had wondered down to England to see who were these Englishmen that had declared war on him? I then immediately reached a ceasefire with Brennus.

430 BC Hey, okay… I killed one Roman archer this turn… at this rate, I should get one of those Great General-Warlord unit thingies I have heard exist by… oh, say, by maybe 2049 AD.

310 BC I completed the Colossus in London (capital) because I thought it would be good, and add GPP’s and because I had only coastal cities so far.

280 BC The Romans conquered and eliminated the Indians {I had chosen the wrong side in that war}.

I have traded along, primarily with M&M (but others also, including selling Monotheism several times at discounts).

In 160 BC, Monty DOW’ed M&M. I am thinking here’s finally my chance to get into a real war, since M&M may ask me to join. I put together a ‘rag tag’ stack of about 4-5 units of an Axe, a couple of crossbowmen, a spear, etc. and sent them to Mali.

Sold Meditation around at discounts.

I had my units near the action for a while in Mali, hoping for the best scenario, where M&M greatly weakened a Monty town, and I DOW Monty and take it. Just as I was about to give up, M&M asked me to join. I accepted the challenge and immediately destroyed a Jaguar and an archer, I think it was. Then, very next turn, M&M makes peace with Monty!! I head for home, making peace later with Monty.

Now I’ve had three virtually pointless wars, captured NO new cities, and just ticked off half the world for attacking them or their friends.

65 AD Began the Nat’l Epic at London. My population reached 1 million.

80 Ad Whipped Nat’l Epic to completion. I’d later build the Heroic Epic in London also. This noob has basically reduced himself to a OCC almost. My other two cities have necessary improvements only.

QUESTION #2: Maybe someone can tell me what I should expect with regard to the Vassel relationship. Specifically, do you use it and a brief explanation (I have read a thread or two about it, but in this game, the only example I saw was that Ramesses has Wang Kong as Vassal State for the time being; I think he is freed later on.

125 I already had Aquaducts everywhere, I think. Whipped three harbors in the cities for health {after delaying my tech track to pick up Compass for this purpose}. I would also sell Compass to a majority of the other civs {mostly ones I didn’t think could use it- no coastal cities) for deep discounts but nevertheless a good chunk of change for me $$$.

Tofugainweight asked me to DOW Ragweed, silly noob that I am, I did. {Fourth war, and again I can’t even get troops over to Vikings}. I was trying to keep Tofu happy; I didn’t realize until a few turns later that Japan was backwards in the tech race, had poorly placed and difficult to defend satellite city near me (i.e., a soon-to-be-target), and I would have to go west after my coming debacle of a “real war.”

290 AD I DOW’ed Mehmed II, and attacked and captured his coastal city near York. Unfortunately, he retook Edirne with force the next turn, and I decided about valor and discretion and turned tail and ran back to lick my wounds and heal. Imported a couple of Mace & cats coming in from London and Nottingham on the Isles, and approached Edirne a second time. Mehmed had more defenders in the city and environs than I had attackers, both units and cats. I took $30g and Mehmed paid me an additional $3gpt for peace and I went home, still owning ONLY three cities I started with. I felt like I had been in a seven day hatchet war, but that I had lost my tomahawk on the very first day ….

440 AD I finally got to see the WarLords poster child, and earned my first Great General. QUESTION #3: What is your typical game plan for using these units? I built a military academy at London with my first {and only, so far}.

500 AD I am preparing to DOW Tokugawa and attack Osaka.

QUESTION # 4: Should you demand tribute before a war? Tofu only had $20g for tribute, but I asked for it, got it, and then would declare war anyway. The only downside that I know of is that I’ll have the “arrogant demand” negative diplo points, but the upside is that whatever tribute I get is easier upfront and possibly there will be more if I get peace at the end?

At 500 AD, my whole approach has changed back to an early, early thought process about attacking Ragnar and now Tokugawa, including going through Kublai Khan to get to them. I had given this up because of the distance and closed borders with Kublai Khan earlier when I went the other way (attacking Mehmed’s coastal city). Now, I am back working on Change Delta to Plan Charlie.

My tech research rate has stayed at or near 100% due to limited expansion, and sales of old techs, despite upgrades of all units (usually don’t spend for upgrades, but ‘usually’ have plenty of cities to build a plethora of units. Not so this time.)

QUESTION #5: One reason my warmongering is so delayed (okay, so I AM a ‘real’ noob) is that I am not sure how to deal with the foreign culture surrounding a city I capture, or issues like open borders with enemies—I.e., I capture a city, and the enemy “hides” in foreign territory and attacks me from their land—he has opens borders with his friend, but I do not—so if I attack him, I first have to declare war on the third party “innocent” Civ. Can someone give a noobie guidance on how to warmonger on this crowded map with these types of issues?

Side note: (@AU Armageddon- I see you used a cultural bomb- I have only tried that once or twice, but later in the game, do they work against built-up cultures? Also, my GPP farm was designed by Forrest Gump and is therefore, “like a box of chocolates; you never know what you will get.” So, I have not gotten an artist yet in this game- although I have only gotten three GP by 500 AD, maybe fourth on the way.}

I have had several wars, and all I’ve netted is negative diplo points so far.

QUESTION #6: As I understand it, from threads hereabout, when you trade with a Civ, there is a ‘counter’ of sorts that gets updated ‘against’ you in the sense that it might slow down future trading with Civs. Does it count as a “Trade” for these purposes when you swap ‘open borders’ with another civ?

QUESTION #7: When a tech gets old and cheap, I will often try to pick up $$$g by selling it at a discount to several other civs. If I net $30g from one, $40g, $70g, maybe $100g from the first, etc. do each of these {I guess?} count as a separate ‘trade’ for the above-mentioned purposes? [ Any further explanation of the effects of such a ‘counter’, if there is such a thing, would be ‘noobly’ appreciated ].

QUESTION #8: Is it my imagination, or is the unhappiness from whipping away pop under slavery civic working differently in WarLords from vanilla—it seems more logical, or maybe this noob is just understanding it for the first time?

QUESTION #9: whb mentions above in his post, income from shrine\religion. Do you have to adopt the religion {Confucianism in his case} to get that income? I shied away from religion ‘cause I had enuf negative diplo points with other civs as it was. Could I have gotten a religion and shrine income WITHOUT a state religion?

Again, many thanks in advance for taking time to answer questions and comment on my game. I played relatively slowly, well not fast anyway—you know, typical noob -- “half-fast.” E.g., I haven’t even settled what could have been a fourth city, I suppose, on “Ireland Island.” Slaving and Whipping… (chopping, too) most of my cities are still smallish… (and definitely not in the shade of large oak trees) due to over-rushing. Nevertheless, I hope to learn from my mistakes.

At 500AD, I have just finished Education tech, and will take 8 more turns to do Philosophy (one I haven’t been able to work out a trade for). Then I have a good shot at being the first to Liberalism, with M&M the only possible contender for that. I have most of the earlier techs prior to Education, etc. I am undecided if I get the free tech, whether to take the more expensive “Printing Press” and head for Rifling, Infantry via Assembly line, or just grab Musketmen (Gunpowder) and try to warmonger for real. In my other games, I have had Optics by now, and chose Astronomy as the most expensive tech available instead of Printing Press. What do you guys think I should have done (I will have made the decision by the time I read the answer, most likely)? - Question #10.

FINAL QUESTION #11: Several mention grabbing Chemistry (Grenadiers?). Are they that much better than just heading through Rifling and Assembly line (only because what, they are quicker?)

Thanks again for putting up with this noob’s questions.

Best to all
Adama
Military Leader of the last remnant of the Human Race

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm sure there are other players who could address your questions much better than me, but as it has been a while since your post, I'll try my hand at them:

QUESTION #1: What would you do with your first prophet? I had a shot at Theology (and probably founding the Christian religion), but since I didn’t plan on having a state religion (for diplomatic reasons), I opted to make him a resident prophet contributing 2H’s & $5g per turn. Right decision, wrong move or just noob ignorance on my part?
I picked Theo (just to trade it around), and settled the 2nd one. I think it is situational.

QUESTION #2: Maybe someone can tell me what I should expect with regard to the Vassel relationship. Specifically, do you use it and a brief explanation (I have read a thread or two about it, but in this game, the only example I saw was that Ramesses has Wang Kong as Vassal State for the time being; I think he is freed later on.
I think it can be useful when you need to focus on a next target and you don't want to spend efforts on killing the vassal wannabe, which is often a ideal situation

440 AD I finally got to see the WarLords poster child, and earned my first Great General. QUESTION #3: What is your typical game plan for using these units? I built a military academy at London with my first {and only, so far}.From my limited experience, I also go military academy, if I have Education, then mili instructors for the additional XP

QUESTION # 4: Should you demand tribute before a war? Tofu only had $20g for tribute, but I asked for it, got it, and then would declare war anyway. The only downside that I know of is that I’ll have the “arrogant demand” negative diplo points, but the upside is that whatever tribute I get is easier upfront and possibly there will be more if I get peace at the end?I think a pre-war extortion doesn't hurt unless you plan to be friends with your victim soon enough

QUESTION #5: One reason my warmongering is so delayed (okay, so I AM a ‘real’ noob) is that I am not sure how to deal with the foreign culture surrounding a city I capture, or issues like open borders with enemies—I.e., I capture a city, and the enemy “hides” in foreign territory and attacks me from their land—he has opens borders with his friend, but I do not—so if I attack him, I first have to declare war on the third party “innocent” Civ. Can someone give a noobie guidance on how to warmonger on this crowded map with these types of issues?Happened to me before, and I was happy to see a well-implemented plan from an AI.

QUESTION #6: As I understand it, from threads hereabout, when you trade with a Civ, there is a ‘counter’ of sorts that gets updated ‘against’ you in the sense that it might slow down future trading with Civs. Does it count as a “Trade” for these purposes when you swap ‘open borders’ with another civ?you refer to "we fear you are becoming too advanced" issue (search for thread containing "WFYABTA" in the strategy forums)

QUESTION #7: When a tech gets old and cheap, I will often try to pick up $$$g by selling it at a discount to several other civs. If I net $30g from one, $40g, $70g, maybe $100g from the first, etc. do each of these {I guess?} count as a separate ‘trade’ for the above-mentioned purposes? [ Any further explanation of the effects of such a ‘counter’, if there is such a thing, would be ‘noobly’ appreciated ].refer to #6, but the answer is NO. The counter is related to the # of techs YOU got from trade.

QUESTION #8: Is it my imagination, or is the unhappiness from whipping away pop under slavery civic working differently in WarLords from vanilla—it seems more logical, or maybe this noob is just understanding it for the first time?Not that I know

QUESTION #9: whb mentions above in his post, income from shrine\religion. Do you have to adopt the religion {Confucianism in his case} to get that income? I shied away from religion ‘cause I had enuf negative diplo points with other civs as it was. Could I have gotten a religion and shrine income WITHOUT a state religion?Yes. The added benefit of having that religion as state is that you get to see the cities with the religion (with the defending troops, etc)

At 500AD, I have just finished Education tech, and will take 8 more turns to do Philosophy (one I haven’t been able to work out a trade for). Then I have a good shot at being the first to Liberalism, with M&M the only possible contender for that. I have most of the earlier techs prior to Education, etc. I am undecided if I get the free tech, whether to take the more expensive “Printing Press” and head for Rifling, Infantry via Assembly line, or just grab Musketmen (Gunpowder) and try to warmonger for real. In my other games, I have had Optics by now, and chose Astronomy as the most expensive tech available instead of Printing Press. What do you guys think I should have done (I will have made the decision by the time I read the answer, most likely)? - Question #10.I'll pass on this one, wait for Final Spoiler.

FINAL QUESTION #11: Several mention grabbing Chemistry (Grenadiers?). Are they that much better than just heading through Rifling and Assembly line (only because what, they are quicker?)I think so. They also have a bonus vs the riflemen when those show up. But rifles are good vs Cavs, so if the AI have them...

My 2¢.

 

[lightsedge]

Is there any good reason I should have chosen Code of Laws (and religion I didn’t really need to found) over MC?

Founding a religion, the caste system, and courthouses can all be useful, depending on the situation. It also depends what the next tech you want is. Metal casting is the more expensive tech though, so I'd go for that unless you need something from CoL right away (or Civil Service).

QUESTION #1: What would you do with your first prophet?

Build the religious wonder if I founded a religion. Otherwise settle unless I want the tech a lot. Settling your early great people is fine, as they'll help you throughout the game.

QUESTION #2: Maybe someone can tell me what I should expect with regard to the Vassel relationship.

Vassals are nice because they'll always trade with you. They go to war whenever you do. I believe they give you a small happiness boost. It also lets you go to war with someone else. I would avoid a situation where you conquer part of a civ and vassalize them when their borders are right up against your newly conquered cities. Read the civpedia entry for more info.

QUESTION # 4: Should you demand tribute before a war?

If you don't care about future diplomatic relationships with that civ (ie you're going to destroy them), then sure.

QUESTION #5: One reason my warmongering is so delayed (okay, so I AM a ‘real’ noob) is that I am not sure how to deal with the foreign culture surrounding a city I capture, or issues like open borders with enemies—I.e., I capture a city, and the enemy “hides” in foreign territory and attacks me from their land—he has opens borders with his friend, but I do not—so if I attack him, I first have to declare war on the third party “innocent” Civ. Can someone give a noobie guidance on how to warmonger on this crowded map with these types of issues?

If you conquer enough land, or destroy a civ totally, then you will create space for yourself. Also, if another civ's borders are overwhelming you, and you can't or don't want to attack directly, have someone else take him out. If your ally succeeds, then the new owner's culture won't be a problem for some time, if ever. If someone declares war on you and you can't reach him, then try to find an ally (who is close to the enemy) to attack him. In any case, you should be able to make peace if you just hold out for a short time.

QUESTION #8: Is it my imagination, or is the unhappiness from whipping away pop under slavery civic working differently in WarLords from vanilla—it seems more logical, or maybe this noob is just understanding it for the first time?

This thread may help (there's a link to a great guide in there too): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228440

QUESTION #9: Could I have gotten a religion and shrine income WITHOUT a state religion?

I don't believe you can. EDIT: This is wrong, as Vynd says below, you do get shrine income.

I am undecided if I get the free tech, whether to take the more expensive “Printing Press” and head for Rifling, Infantry via Assembly line, or just grab Musketmen (Gunpowder) and try to warmonger for real. In my other games, I have had Optics by now, and chose Astronomy as the most expensive tech available instead of Printing Press. What do you guys think I should have done (I will have made the decision by the time I read the answer, most likely)?

You can research Gunpowder yourself and then grab Chemistry. Astronomy is quite nice for the Observatories, but if you want to make war soon, go for Rifling, Military Tradition, or Chemistry.

FINAL QUESTION #11: Several mention grabbing Chemistry (Grenadiers?). Are they that much better than just heading through Rifling and Assembly line (only because what, they are quicker?)

Using Liberalism, you can get Chemistry quite fast, and run over several civs before they even get Musketeers. If you're willing to wait a bit longer, Redcoats are a good option here. Cavalry is always nice too. Just pick one and run with it.

 

[Vynd]

Is there any good reason I should have chosen Code of Laws (and religion I didn’t really need to found) over MC?

Both techs are very useful, so it really depends on what you plan on doing.

QUESTION #1: What would you do with your first prophet? I had a shot at Theology (and probably founding the Christian religion), but since I didn’t plan on having a state religion (for diplomatic reasons), I opted to make him a resident prophet contributing 2H’s & $5g per turn. Right decision, wrong move or just noob ignorance on my part?

In this game I probably would have lightbulbed Theology, if only because I would then have a fairly valuable tech no one else owned which I could then trade to everyone else. Establishing Christianity would be a secondary benefit. If you aren't in a position to make good tech trades, though, then settling the Prophet makes very good sense.

QUESTION #2: Maybe someone can tell me what I should expect with regard to the Vassel relationship. Specifically, do you use it and a brief explanation (I have read a thread or two about it, but in this game, the only example I saw was that Ramesses has Wang Kong as Vassal State for the time being; I think he is freed later on.

Besides what others have already mentioned about vassals, I'll point out that the game will count half of the territory your vassals control as your own when calculating if you've won a Domination victory.

Vassalizing people through warfare can be great, since it will let you end the war faster, with fewer losses, and get ready for your next war that much quicker. The main nuisance, I find, is that your vassal's culture will still be very high in the areas you conquered before vassalizing them, and so any cities you captured in that area will have a hard time growing.

440 AD I finally got to see the WarLords poster child, and earned my first Great General. QUESTION #3: What is your typical game plan for using these units? I built a military academy at London with my first {and only, so far}.

A military academy is great if you have the technology. Instructors are usually the next best option, or even the best option if you are already very strong in production and don't need the boost. Attaching them to units is something I only do on rare occasions.

QUESTION #5: One reason my warmongering is so delayed (okay, so I AM a ‘real’ noob) is that I am not sure how to deal with the foreign culture surrounding a city I capture, or issues like open borders with enemies...

Side note: (@AU Armageddon- I see you used a cultural bomb- I have only tried that once or twice, but later in the game, do they work against built-up cultures?

The issues you describe are difficult ones to deal with. In this game they were a bigger deal than usual since there were so many Civs. You just have to bring extra units to defend against attacks from civs you lack access to. And there isn't much you can do about the foreign culture except attack that civ as well when you're done with the first.

A Great Artist culture bomb will help a little, but there's a difference between the culture associated with a city and the culture associated with the tiles that make up the map. It's the later that determines whose borders are where. Creating a Great Work in a newly captured city will instantly give that city a thousands of culture points, but it doesn't have nearly as big of an impact on the culture of the surrounding tiles. Tiles that already have really substantial amounts of foreign culture in them are not going to get flipped over to you just because you set off a culture bomb nearby.

QUESTION #9: whb mentions above in his post, income from shrine\religion. Do you have to adopt the religion {Confucianism in his case} to get that income? I shied away from religion ‘cause I had enuf negative diplo points with other civs as it was. Could I have gotten a religion and shrine income WITHOUT a state religion?

You profit from the shrine whether it is your state religion or not.

I am undecided if I get the free tech, whether to take the more expensive “Printing Press” and head for Rifling, Infantry via Assembly line, or just grab Musketmen (Gunpowder) and try to warmonger for real. In my other games, I have had Optics by now, and chose Astronomy as the most expensive tech available instead of Printing Press. What do you guys think I should have done (I will have made the decision by the time I read the answer, most likely)? - Question #10.

Astronomy or Printing Press are both nice techs to get for free from Liberalism. Gunpowder is not, in my opinion. Musketmen are OK defensive units but not very effective attackers.

FINAL QUESTION #11: Several mention grabbing Chemistry (Grenadiers?). Are they that much better than just heading through Rifling and Assembly line (only because what, they are quicker?)

Grenadiers are popular because it is relatively fast to get them, they're much better than anything that's available before them, and because you can upgrade any experienced Macemen you have around to Grenadiers. Grenadiers with city raider promotions are extremely powerful. They'll easily defeat anything your opponent has in his cities up until Machine Guns and Infantry. Their only weak point is defending against attacks from Cavalry or Riflemen in the open field.

Riflemen take considerably longer to get. They're a bit better than Grenadiers in some situations, but not all. So they're often less attractive to go after. especially if you're hoping to wrap the game up before you get to infantry. Although in this game, we are the English, and they have Redcoats not Riflemen. Redcoats are extra-strong Riflemen, very nice units that are well worth pursuing.

Another reason to go for Grenadiers and neglect Rifling is that after you research Chemistry you can immediately start working on Steel. That will give you Cannons, which are another great unit.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Another reason to go for Grenadiers and neglect Rifling is that after you research Chemistry you can immediately start working on Steel. That will give you Cannons, which are another great unit.

I think this combo is even more powerful in Warlords compared to Vanilla. If you are playing for domination or conquest at this stage you will likely be facing large AI stacks. In Warlords the AI builds many more siege units and tends to have a large dagger stack waiting when you DOW (this game just exaggerates this since there isn't much other than units for the AI to build). Cannons are immune to collateral damage and make great stack defenders and field attackers with power or drill promotions. Catapults and trebuchets have such lower power that they won't do much damage to a cannon. Secondary defenders don't wear down with collateral damage so they are still favorites against maces and knights. Power cannons are also fine city attackers after a few CR cannons or grenadiers crush the top defenders.

Its always frustrating to have a stack of CR grenadiers killed by a swarm of catapults and maces. The cannons allow you to beeline toward cities without trying to entice the AI to attack while you are on favorable terrain. This can be crucial since you have a limited window with grenadiers/cannons against medieval units. You are still really vulnerable to an AI stack of siege and cavalry without rifles(the AI tends to favor Mil Trad over Chemistry) but that's a hard nut to crack.

 

[lightsedge]

Ah yes, cannons. I love cannons. They're a very good reason to go the Chemistry route if you're looking to capture some cities. Plus, even when everyone gets riflemen, you still run them over with grenadiers.

 

[Thrallia]

Ok, I finally hit the spoiler point, so here goes (dV, you might wanna pay attention, I'm gunning for you )

I settled London in place, researched Sailing first, and built workboat, galley, settler, workboat, worker, or some combo therein.

I essentially gunned for settling on the continent ASAP, in order to grab the gold and floodplains I saw to the north. I got there just before Mehmed, and started a settler for the continental copper(didn't have BW researched yet when I founded York), but after putting him on the boat, Khan settled Beshbalik near the copper, so I built Nottingham in Scotland.

I then remembered we would need archers, so I grabbed that tech, and pumped 3 workers out of London to improve York and the Isles. I built 2 archers in York and a monument, improved the gold(which really jumped my research rate), and sent my warrior exploring through the AI lands exploring.

Unfortunately, Stalin didn't like me, and declared war on me with a stack of 4 axes. I whipped a third archer, but lost all 3 of them, taking out 1 axe, and Stalin took York from me.

At this point, I knew I was in trouble...I've never had an AI declare war on me pre-1500BC with a veritable stack of axes before! Luckily, he couldn't reach my other cities, and I was able to position my galley as a land bridge onto the gold hill...so I began ferrying archer after archer across...failing time and again. I then grabbed IW as a last resort to giving up on York...SUCCESS! Iron is easily reachable within London's cross! I instantly hook it up using my 2 remaining workers(I had one in York when Stalin invaded), and begin pumping out Swords and Axes...I quickly find that Swords on a hill still can't compete with axes...so I change tactics and funnel 2 axes every 3-4 turns onto the mainland. About 1000BC, Stalin has an aneurysm and sends 3 of the 4 axes he has in York off who knows where, leaving York defended by 2 archers, 1 axe, and 4 spears...to face my 9 axes!
I take back York with no losses and hold there while Stalin suicides York with the 3 axes he had removed and about 4 others. Once he's done, 6 of my axes are CR3, and I've got 2 archers ready to defend York while I advance on Moscow. I find and raze his copper mine, destroy about 5 random troops he has running around his territory, and decide my stack or 9 axes and 3 swords can't take Moscow...so I go down to St. Pete instead.

By 700BC, I've taken St. Pete, brought in about 5 cats to add to my stack, which is now short 4 axes thanks to some russian sneak attacks. I move up to Moscow, take it out, and Stalin is no more. I've gone from 18th place to about 9th place in the game by taking him out, and as I see Khan hasn't researched Monarchy yet, I quickly switch over to take him out.

I declare war around 1AD, taking Turfan on the 5th turn of war, and advance on karakorum. This takes longer, but for some reason he isn't as well defended as Stalin was. I take out Karakorum, and find that despite my now having Feudalism, I can't get him to vassalize...so I take over Beshbalik as well, just before 400AD.

At 500AD then, I'm 2nd in score, 5th in power, I'm working on Machinery, which will be followed by CS, then I plan on taking out Toku, Ragnar, and Mehmed(I keep worrying about Mehmed...he has a lot of troops, isn't happy with me, and commonly backstabs me in HOF games)

Oh, I also sold Literature for about 1500 gold, and Ramses is going nuts...he's 200 points ahead of me, and despite only having 3 cities he's 4 techs ahead of me, while I'm about at 5th place in tech(and gaining)...he's also built pretty much every wonder imaginable...at early dates too. He built the Hagia Sophia, Sistine Chapel, Colossus, and Great Library pre-AD!

I plan on taking him out when I've gotten more secure borders since he's my only real competition for what I hope will be either a domination or Space Race win.

 

[da_Vinci]

Ok, I finally hit the spoiler point, so here goes (dV, you might wanna pay attention, I'm gunning for you )

Great, when you exchange the blanks in that gun for real bullets, I might start to think about getting nervous!

At 500AD then, I'm 2nd in score, 5th in power, I'm working on Machinery, which will be followed by CS, then I plan on taking out Toku, Ragnar, and Mehmed(I keep worrying about Mehmed...he has a lot of troops, isn't happy with me, and commonly backstabs me in HOF games)

Oh, I also sold Literature for about 1500 gold, and Ramses is going nuts...he's 200 points ahead of me, and despite only having 3 cities he's 4 techs ahead of me, while I'm about at 5th place in tech(and gaining)...he's also built pretty much every wonder imaginable...at early dates too. He built the Hagia Sophia, Sistine Chapel, Colossus, and Great Library pre-AD!

I plan on taking him out when I've gotten more secure borders since he's my only real competition for what I hope will be either a domination or Space Race win.

Let me direct you to my 365 AD screenshot in this spoiler thread ... my 200 point score lead, and look, only four turns from machinery (already have CS IIRC). I think I'll sleep just fine tonight!

Seriously, the way I can get bogged down in the midgame, who knows how this will turn out. Oh wait, that is your problem too!

Good luck with the rest of the game!

dV

 

[Thrallia]

ah, but I'm being much more warlike this time around...I hope to turn my large empire into a military juggernaut and win faster than you

 

[da_Vinci]

ah, but I'm being much more warlike this time around...I hope to turn my large empire into a military juggernaut and win faster than you

Well, then you would have to win before CENSORED

You ever done that before, the military juggernaut thing?

dV

 

[Thrallia]

not successfully. I generally either muck up the beginnings of my warmongering, or I wait too long, or I war for a little while then I turn builder.

OH...just wanted to point out...you may be about to grab Maces, but I've already taken out 2 AI and have a larger, more productive empire already

 

[da_Vinci]

not successfully. I generally either muck up the beginnings of my warmongering, or I wait too long, or I war for a little while then I turn builder.

So, if old habits die hard, I'm safe!

OH...just wanted to point out...you may be about to grab Maces, but I've already taken out 2 AI and have a larger, more productive empire already

And you know this how? How much infrasturcture did you build while Stalin was owning York? Any world or national wonders? If you are so much more productive, why am I ahead in tech? Methinks your chickens are still in their shells!

dV

 

[Thrallia]

my science is bad because I'm always slow to grab CoL, thus courthouses, but when I've already got more than 3 million pop and 8 cities, I'm sure I've got a larger, more productive(as in , not ) empire than your 6 city empire(not to mention, from your screenshot, it appears I have a lot more cottages than you do)

I'm assuming most of your research is coming from trade and GP...most of mine is coming from cottages. You did probably get more infrastructure built within your main cities than I did, but I gained 4 well-developed cities from the Mongols and the Russians...it'll be interesting to see how we both do in the mid-game, since that's where we both have issues...I'm hoping to take off once I get my courthouses up and can focus on infrastructure within London and Nottingham, rather than troops.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I decided that in this game to take a deviation from my usual tactic of COL slingshot to try out a more militaristic approach with the MC sling-GE-Machinery tactic. This went pretty according to plan and around 800BC I was able to start pumping out Xbows. This turned out very handy indeed in dealing with the numerous axes of Stalin, Shaka and Monty all of whom I was at war with during the early years.
The initial war plan was to drive a wedge into the mainland and then drive around the land one way and hopefully build up enough for two armies and start to move the other way. At 500AD I have destroyed Russia and have 5 cities, 3 on mainland and 2 usual ones on home island, I have Glib in London and Colosuss in York. I have reached Feudalism, CS and Const in tech although I have concentrated in pushing forward on higher level techs and then backfilling in trade others, I have held off trading some techs eg COL and MC to try to help keep a mil advantage for as long as poss.
Although my armies aren't particularly numerous at the moment they are however tech advanced and battlehardened, X-bows are mostly at Drill IV, cats and Maces at CR3. I have found that Drill promoted X-bows are excellent early on and can take on numerous axes and swords easily .
I think initially I will look to move East and finish Mehmed and Shaka as these have been at war with each other for a few years now and both armies have been worn down.
One annoying thing in this game is the fact that after capturing a city you have to take out 2-3 others to make the one you captured workable. I wanted to settle on the mouth of the river spot and after razing Stalins city on the hill 1Ne of this spot moved in a settler only to find I couldn't settle there as was too close to another city so had to take the spot I had just raized . Although in general I agree about Grenadiers in this game however I think I will aim at Redcoats first and try to push home as much of an advantage with these as I can.

 

[BLubmuz]

Just to know:
My initial build queue was WB-worker-WB-settler
When the settler was on, *all* the mainland coast was settled or within borders of some AI.
Thus the question is: the AIs in the games of the people who managed to settle in the mainland was sleeping, or there's something i'm missing?

I'm trying to figure to put a galley instead of the worker in queue (or instead the 2nd WB?), but this will delay the settler, and you can't have any tile worked (gems, quarries) for ages in the first case.

 

[da_Vinci]

I didn't settle the mainland, I conquered a beachhead city north of York (an archer rush, of all things!) Khan had setted it disconnected from his capital, so that made life easier, and he didn't get copper hooked up early. That beachhead put copper in York, and I was all set.

dV