WOTM 10 First Spoiler

[Adama]

@ Thrallia, Conquistador, Lightsedge, Vynd, Robert, et. al.

The amount of learning that goes on in these threads (I am positive it's not just me, but others, who maybe don't even post here) is amazing and I am truly thankful, not only for information which may not even be available elsewhere, but also for the time savings.

As just two quick examples, thanks especially to Vynd for the info on shrine income and culture bombs - as the latter relates to tiles vs. city culture.

But, everyone is so knowledgeable and helpful.

Thanks Again !!
Adama
Military Leader of the last remnant of the Human Race

 

[MarkM]

.... there's a difference between the culture associated with a city and the culture associated with the tiles that make up the map. It's the later that determines whose borders are where. Creating a Great Work in a newly captured city will instantly give that city a thousands of culture points, but it doesn't have nearly as big of an impact on the culture of the surrounding tiles. Tiles that already have really substantial amounts of foreign culture in them are not going to get flipped over to you just because you set off a culture bomb nearby.

I'm staggering towards the finish line in this game (well, at least I think I see it there, WAY off in the distance -- who was it in the pregame that said this was going to be a military cakewalk???). I was just reading this in meantime to see how others coming after me have done. I've tried a number of culture bombs in captured cities in this game (two successive ones in the same city on the same turn even), and have I ever been frustrated at how ineffective they have been. I wasn't going to ask the question until I finished and go to the final spoiler, but ... since it was brought up here already, here goes: could you explain exactly HOW these differ (the effect on neighboring tiles from culture bombs vs growing culture organically). In mathematical terms (formulas) if possible? WHY do they differ?

 

[Thrallia]

I can do so rudimentarily...I don't know the formula, but I do know that the closer a tile is to a city, the more culture it gets from that city. Also, culture on a tile builds up every turn, for every civ that has any influence on that tile.

On the other hand, if you culture bomb a city, you'll suddenly get 6k culture in the city(on epic speed), but it is pretty much concentrated on the city tile itself. Your borders will expand as they would normally...unless it encounters a tile with a decent amount of foreign culture that still is gaining culture from its source. In which case, you lose out on a decent amount of the culture bomb's effectiveness.

Since most AI seem to build cities about 3 tiles from each other, you'll have lots of weird culture happenings in this WOTM.

 

[MarkM]

I can do so rudimentarily...I don't know the formula, but I do know that the closer a tile is to a city, the more culture it gets from that city. Also, culture on a tile builds up every turn, for every civ that has any influence on that tile.

On the other hand, if you culture bomb a city, you'll suddenly get 6k culture in the city(on epic speed), but it is pretty much concentrated on the city tile itself. Your borders will expand as they would normally...unless it encounters a tile with a decent amount of foreign culture that still is gaining culture from its source. In which case, you lose out on a decent amount of the culture bomb's effectiveness.

Since most AI seem to build cities about 3 tiles from each other, you'll have lots of weird culture happenings in this WOTM.

Thanks Thrallia. I do wonder if it is even true that there is much "border producing" culture concentrated in the city tile itself though, as a result of culture bombs. For that city I mentioned which I dropped two culture bombs in the first turn out of capture anarchy ... even with 12k of culture fro 2x great artist, it ended up going in revolt anyway, as a result of culture from 3 third-nation cities all 4-5 squares away! After 12k of culture points from great artists, the % of pop English was still way under 10%. Ironically the closest city was actually English, not Indian (3 quares away), and the captured city I culture bombed twice was actually only 1 square inside the "natural" border I had with Asoka!

In short I think the effect of culture bombs is even less than that, it doesn't even do much to affect % control in the city itself! I wonder if this is a bug or a feature. If it's a feature, I've concluded: boy, are great artists of very limited use, other than for a cultural victory or to start golden ages!

When I'm done with the game I'll reload some of my old saves and see if I have one which shows what I'm talking about. They might even be worth sending to Firaxis, just to confirm it's "right" -- if it still works this way in BTS, I'm sure there'll be patches for it & maybe they can get it resolved there. Because I just don't get why it should be so ineffective even inside the city itself.

Just as an aside relevant to this specific game, for me at least it makes it very difficult to "suspend and consolidate" from wars. Just about every time I have (often forced by really ugly war weariness of > 10), I've seen the final cities I conquer flip to the next neighboring civ. Fighting it by building theaters etc is like holding back the tide with your hand.

 

[pigswill]

Quicket way to solve the problem is to capture the neighbour's city! While waiting for troops to heal/ reinforcements etc then just accept the potential starvation for a few turns (or whip away merrily).

 

[MacDude]

Well, I just hit 500AD and I'm doing pretty well, mainly due to my ignorance!

I started the game thinking "hey, I'm on an island, no one can touch me so lets not defend my cities well (1 warrior) and focus on research." So blissfully started acquiring my local resources and researched & whipped libraries in my two island cities. Then I focused on researching oracle, and "since I dont need to build troops" started building stonehenge and pyramids.

After I built stonehenge, and failed about 5 turns away from pyramids, I realized galleys (an early tech) can get enemy troops on my island! DOGH! So, I switched my research for monarchy to risk an oracle boost to feudalism, and after getting galleys myself focused on building troops using the copper across the river, the iron on my island, and my lucky oracle boost to feudalism.

I then went on the offense and slowly took over Stalin's first city. I'm now in the process of taking his capital, but waiting for catapults to knock down his walls (10 turns away). As I finished for today, Kahn just declared war, so perhaps he will wet my appetite for conquest in the mean time.

I'm currently mid-pack in score (if that means anything) and my only open-boarders trade relations are with egypt (current top score and island neighbor). I hope that relation will prosper, as I would HATE to have to face him! Considering how poorly I did on the last WOTM, and extremely happy with this start, even though I'm struggling to take over Stalin (taking WAY too long)!!

 

[MarkM]

Quicket way to solve the problem is to capture the neighbour's city! While waiting for troops to heal/ reinforcements etc then just accept the potential starvation for a few turns (or whip away merrily).

In other words, constant war ... starts to get ugly when my war weariness got into double digits though (didn't help when my city with Mt Rushmore was overcome ...). I guess I wasn't about to attack my only friend in the game at that point (everyone else was Annoyed or Furious by then).

I guess I went for a less drastic approach, made the best I could of under the assumption I could not hold them long. Ran border cities with all specialists (even normal old +1 hammer white-shirts if nothing better), since I had the wonder that gave +2 culture for specialists (forgot the name). Built theaters then libraries then temples (if I lasted that long). When the cities finally flipped they were starved to small size & not much use to neighbor, but had a good seeding of culture for when & if i have to retake later. I couldn't bear to raze them, but on the other hand I didn't want them to be too powerful when they fell into the neighbor's hands, and generate cultures to squeeze the next line of cities behind them.

Sure as heck didn't waster any more great artists on these. I finally learned my lesson after about the 4th one wasted this way (man did I get a lot of GA -- I thought it was perfect until I found out how ineffective they are as culture bombs on a crowded map).

 

[da_Vinci]

Just taking a stab here, not talking from expertise, but perhaps the border expansion is related to those city levels of poor, fledgling, etc, while culture value exerted on a tile is some function of distance and the city culture value (changing every turn) ... maybe an inverse square rule (like gravity and electrotstatic force )? I assume you only exert culture on tiles within your hypothetical cultural border, and then only own the tiles that you have cultural superiority in (or maybe active cultural superiority, as there seems to be latent enemy culture in tiles after a city is taken).

So a culture bomb can only move the border if it takes you across a threshold city level (so more dramatic in a young city, less so in a mature one), and if the cultural border is several "rings" of tiles away, the culture per tile on the frontier could be pretty minimal if some inverse square of distance rule is operating. And next to a mature enemy city, bomb's effect is also blunted by its established culture.

Not a shot in the dark, but at best a shot in a dimly lit room.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Not a shot in the dark, but at best a shot in a dimly lit room.

dV

There is one very detailed thread by Deranged Duck on this subject in the strategy articles forum. Not for the casual player/reader, but truly prime reading if you're interested in the subject.

 

[spacemanmf]

Great Artists can be useful when you capture a large city and there are potentially, say, 12 turns of civil unrest when you need that city culture defence increasing from the off (in order to be able to hold the city). It stops any civil unrest immediately if you use a culture bomb, so you can start building stuff and utilising whichever tiles you have control over.

But if the city is under pressure from experienced cities, in my experience it seems better to settle the artists. Over time, the surrounding land will hopefully be regained.

They can also be used to lightbulb stuff, lightbulbing Music before anyone else knows it is a neat trick!

 

[Vynd]

Could you explain exactly HOW these [city culture and tile culture] differ (the effect on neighboring tiles from culture bombs vs growing culture organically). In mathematical terms (formulas) if possible? WHY do they differ?

The thread that Conquistador 63 links to is the place to go for a detailed explanation. I had no idea how tile culture worked until fairly recently, when I went looking for info and found that thread. Here's a very superficial and possibly inaccurate summary of Deranged Duck's post:

Every tile has the ability to hold culture from every civ in the game, simultaneously. The civ with the highest amount of culture in the tile controls the tile, if the tile is within reach of one of its cities.

How do tiles get culture? From nearby cities. Every turn, a city will add some of its owners culture into every tile that is within its cultural radius. So for a newly established city you'll add culture to the tile it is on and the tiles immediately adjacent to it, but once you hit the first border expansion (based on total culture in the city) you'll also add to the tiles two spaces out, and so on and so forth. This is true even for tiles that another civ currently controls because they have higher culture there.

How much culture gets added to the tiles? The base amount is the amount of culture the city is generating per turn. If your city has a large cultural radius you'll get some bonus culture added to the tiles closest to the city, every turn, that is independent of what your city generates itself.

What a Great Work apparently does is first add a bunch of culture to the city, expanding its cultural borders as appropriate. And then it causes the city to add culture to the tiles within its influence. The amount of culture added is what the city would have added to those tiles over the course of twenty turns.

This is why creating a Great Work in a newly captured city doesn't do very much. Because the culture being generated per turn in your newly captured city is zero, and twenty turns worth of zero is still zero. Except that's not quite true. Because of the bonus culture you get regardless of your culture per turn, based purely on having large cultural borders. That still applies, and twenty turns of it gives you a moderate amount of culture in the tiles closest to the city. But that's it.

Deranged Duck points out that this system means it is to your advantage to switch to 100% culture just before setting off a Great Work. If you trigger a Great Work in a city that is currently generating hundreds of points of culture per turn then you will add twenty turns worth of that in an instant to every tile within that city's cultural reach.

 

[Harbourboy]

Yes, I noticed that in GMinor 21 when I was culture bombing my 3rd culture city that was already making 800 culture per turn. It caused a massive cultural explosion at the edge of the city's range, that engulfed two AI cities, including one that held Forbidden Palace.

 

[civ_steve]

Very interesting discussion of culture effects, and of culture bombs! Thanks!

My first WOTM in several months and its more or less moving along. Started out researching to BronzeWorking for Slavery, then Mysticism-Masonry to build Quarries and Stonehenge. Then off to research to Alphabet cause I knew there were lots of folks who'd want to trade Techs with me!

Founded London on the starting spot, and York a bit later in 'Scotland'. Sometime way later, after I realized that the Settler I'd built had been beaten to the coast to the North by MehmedII, I founded on 'Ireland' with it.

I could see the Bronze to the North ... how to get it. I decided to go for Music and use the GA as a culture Bomb in York. I timed the completion of the Oracle for just after Drama, so I took Music for free and set off the bomb. At the time York had a raw value of 2 cpt - 1 from Stonehenge and 1 from Hinduism which had spread to it. I didn't push the culture back too far, but I did get the Bronze from the Mongols, and somehow it was connected to me!!! Even without a city anywhere on that coast! And, some time later, Ankara decided to flip to me, so the bomb did get me Bronze and a toehold city.

My first GP was a Prophet, and used that to get Theology for Free. I sent the Missionary on a quest to scout out the Southern continent, from Egypt all the way to the borders of Zululand; eventually Christianity was established in Seoul. 2nd GP was a Scientist, and I established an Academy.

Stalin did eventually declare on me, and captured Ankara. Just before I retook it, it revolted back to me. Then a key thing happened - Ceasar connected up a 2nd source of Ivory. I gifted Monotheism to him, and now he was willing to trade it. I had to give him Fish AND my one source of Iron, but I thought the happiness, and the ability to build WE, made it very worth while! So I continued on to take St Pete's using WEs. Got my first Warlord along the way, and built a WE with the triple-Med promo. Monte had also declared on me, and took 'Ireland'; I got Ramses to Ally with me against Monte to keep him busy, and I'm planning a WE surprise for the Aztecs! Quite fun.

It's just at 0 AD, and I've got up to CS, and just learned Philosophy and founded Taoism (in Ankara). I don't have Feudalism, but it is available in trade from MM. With St Pete's captured I have my own access to Ivory, so WE are assured. I'm planning to research to Nationalism and MilTradition, and use Cavalry for a while (assuming I find some Horses.)

 

[da_Vinci]

I could see the Bronze to the North ... how to get it. I decided to go for Music and use the GA as a culture Bomb in York. I timed the completion of the Oracle for just after Drama, so I took Music for free and set off the bomb. At the time York had a raw value of 2 cpt - 1 from Stonehenge and 1 from Hinduism which had spread to it. I didn't push the culture back too far, but I did get the Bronze from the Mongols, and somehow it was connected to me!!! Even without a city anywhere on that coast!

I'll speculate on that ... presumably the copper was roaded ... did you have sailing and a ship at that time? Perhaps you are connected to the coast once you have galley (maybe even a trireme), just as you can be connected by a river inland?

Just a thought ...

dV

 

[Erkon]

If I understand Gyathaar correct, it would be enough if the copper was roaded, and the road connected to a river. If the road-river connection is outside your culture, I think it works if you have open borders with the river owner. The river can run through hostile land though.

 

[civ_steve]

The copper was roaded and mined (Thank You, Kublai! ) and I guess the coast and Sailing did the rest of the connection. There may also need to be a city that you are at peace with, at least (I don't think I had OB with either Kublai or MehmedII, so maybe that isn't necessary). I seem to recall an earlier game where my culture crossed to an adjacent land with a resource that was actually in my fat cross; I roaded it and mined it, but didn't gain access, so I think a city on that coast (or a river) is necessary.

 

[Erkon]

The crabs to the east of the starting island was disconnected from my trade network since I lost control over two coastal tiles, which interrupted the non-hostile coastline that is necessary, even though the tile was in my fat cross.

 

[Lexad]

Well, I wonder if I can get a Diplo in Aggressive AI settings without selfvoting - so I give it a try. I intend to kill off Aggressive leaders as they have extra -2 towards me which would take more efforts to offset, if ever. As there would be much killing to do, it is the pop that would limit me, not science, so I intend to go not directly via Astronomy, but through Edu and Liberalism picking somewhat expensive in the pipeline.
Short-term goals - populate 2-3 good cities and go into killing spree. Techwise - fast slavery to chop/pop-rush first settlers and get axes, then - killing spree, as I mentioned earlier. Then Alpha to get trades, then Lit to get GLib for research and GS and Heroepic for war, then MC for Forge to get GE chances for UN. Then construction for cats and CS for maces and Philo-Paper-Edu-preresearch Liber and beeline for UN.

How it went:
Settled on start, saw it is an island, techs - BW and Sailing. Production - Worker - WB - galey - settler. Too late to get gems and copper, get gold, irrigate floodplains, 3rd city on home island. High production and commerce. IW gives Iron at homeland and mainland city, although Zulu city with desert gold tries to dispute it. As Zulu have no metals or horses they become the first target, with swords ripping through layers of archers. 3 cities captured with 2 gold mines and Confucianism.
Next is Stalin who is unsuccessfully warring with Kublai - capture both his cities and proceed to Mongol, finishing him circa 1AD with maces appearing on the batllefield. At the same time lose GL to Ramessess by 1-2 turns.

That many AI allowed great trading gains on Apha and then Currency (1500gold in 1 turn for Alphabet and Literature).
Wars are a constant thing, with warring both peaceful vs aggressie (i.e. Ragnar and Musa) and aggressive vs ~neutral (Stain - Kublai) and neutral among themselves (Cyrus-Augustus) and even peaceful among themselves (Saladin-Ramesses), undermining my electoral base. My next goal would be either Mehmed who stiffens my eastern expansion - but he has loads of troops and high score - or Ramesses for GL or Toku/Ragnar fow western lands while they haven't got their UU. I'm thinking.
I've revolted to Buddhism several times per request of peaceful Buddhist block to gain extra pluses, but all in all I prefer no state religion. When most warring would be done I'll start exporting Buddhism to Musa and other potential voters.
Currently building chouses to get upkeep down (over 100gpt).

My only GPfarm is London, so far I've born GS for Academy and was lucky to get GE - storing him for UN)

 

[Tosti11]

Well, I wonder if I can get a Diplo in Aggressive AI settings without selfvoting

So does without selfvoting imply abstaining from the vote? If you have a healthy percent of the population is it even possible to win if you abstain even if all the other AI vote for you? It sounds like you might be warring yourself into a position where you would have to vote for yourself in order to get your diplo win. I haven't looked closely at how the voting works, but i believe it is population based. I will be looking forward to the final spoiler.

I am amazed at how many different games/strats this WOTM has produced. Thanks to the staff!

 

[Lexad]

So does without selfvoting imply abstaining from the vote?

No, what I meant was w/o backdoor domination but rather making AI vote for me. As a largest voter, I believe my voet would be requierd ftw Although I could give enough cities away to my allies to remain largest and still not vote, this would require quite a margin, meaning some more time to exterminate my enemies Maybe I'll try this after the finish, thanx for the idea.