WOTM 33 First Spoiler - 1 AD

babybluepants · Dec 21, 2010

WOTM 33 First Spoiler 1AD

How is your game going?

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in WOTM 33, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR

You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

Please do not discuss anything that happened after 1 AD,
Please do not divulge your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
Please do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD.
Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.

Where did you settle?
Did you get off the island?
Have you made friends?
Have you built any shiny, pretty things?
Have you decided on a victory condition?

MarleysGh0st · Dec 27, 2010

My game is bumbling along as I try to find a winning strategy against the teams. I would like to achieve a military victory, but that will depend on exploiting wars between the teams, and by 1 AD there haven't been any. Are they all afraid of the opposing teams' strength?

In the meantime, I've settled six cities, built Stonehenge and the GLH in Moscow, and I'm working on the Great Library. One Great Prophet has been settled in Moscow, while a second has built the Kong Miao in St. Petersburg. But, rather than annoy all the teams by choosing a different religion, I decided to appease the strongest team by accepting Bismarck's demand that I convert to Judaism. The only other achievement worth noting was getting the circumnavigation bonus in 425 BC, primarily through the exploration of one work boat.

srad · Dec 29, 2010

Situation at 1AD:

The good:

Expansion went very well this time. I had already 11 cities and a pile of nice wonders:

Stonehenge
Oracle -> MC
Great Lighthouse
Colossus
Hanging Gardens (3 turns to go)

+1 ship movement from circumnavigation bonus.

The bad:

Missed The Great Wall by one turn (didn't care about the barbs but I wished to profit from the GE points).
Toku beat me to the nice marble spot west!
I have only with one team open borders and tech trade possibilities.

The ugly:

I thought that I'm in one of this 3 teams but at one point I realized that those 3 play against me.
I gifted CoL to two teams but this helped nothing regarding open borders or tech trading - guess a team has a 'combined' threshold for such things.
Switched to Judaism because Toku runs this religion but this also didn't help anything regarding open borders but I got negative modifiers with the other teams. So I switched some turns later back to no state religion.

-> Diplo and tech trading is really not easy (or at least something to learn) in team games.

Pics:

Dhoomstriker · Jan 2, 2011

An important observation that I have made about these AI Teams is that it is hard to please a Team but easy to anger them.

For example, let's say that you are trying to please Team A. Let's also say that Team B is the Worst Enemy of Team A.

If you trade with any member of Team B, then ALL THREE MEMBERS of Team A will hate you for having traded with their Worst Enemy!!! :eek:

On the flip side, only the SINGLE MEMBER of Team B that you traded with will be happier for having made the trade, even though a tech trade to that team member will help all three of Team B's teammates. :cry:

I have most of the world hating me for having Traded with their Worst Enemies. That said, I think that I might try for a Diplo game, just to see if it is possible to (eventually) dig myself out of this negative Diplo relations sinkhole and get some group of suckers to vote me to victory.

Of course, one can probably win by self-voting in Warlords, but doing so wouldn't be nearly as fun, would it?

My backup plan will be to fly into space and forget about all of the gangs of hooligans.

The combining of Leader Personality Traits also is quite confusing. I am not really sure if Leaders have their Personality Traits (such as whether or not they will Declare War at Pleased, whether or not they will Trade a Tech that few other AIs know) are averaged together, are floored, are ceilinged, are different in behaviour for different Personality Traits, or what.

The question also gets raised as to what happens when you eliminate a member of a Team. For example, if you face an AI Team that has 2 members who will not Declare War on you if you are Pleased or above but another one that will only not Declare War on you if you are Friendly or above, I believe that they would likely, as a Team, be willing to Declare War on you at Pleased. However, if you eliminated the AI from that Team that required you to be Friendly with them before they would Declare War on you, would the two remaining teammates still carry-over the Dead Teammate's Personality Traits and thus still be willing to declare war on you at Pleased, or would you now have a situation where the Dead AI's Personality Traits are ignored and thus the Team with its remaining AIs that will not declare war at you when Pleased with you will now not Declare War with you when they are Pleased with you?

The answers could definitely impact one's overall strategy towards dealing with some of these Teams.

kcd_swede · Jan 10, 2011

srad said:
-> Diplo and tech trading is really not easy (or at least something to learn) in team games.

And technically, you have to give a tech to 3 opponents in order to get 1 tech back in trade. So tech trading is much less advantageous. The teams have similar troubles trading with each other, though.

...

I didn't read the relaese page carefully. I started playing without realizing it was a team game. My cities are almost exactly the same places as Srad, except the west one against the mountain is 1SW of that spot in my game, and I fit in one more city. Even Toku's Satsuma is in the same spot, except that in my game it no longer belongs to Toku. He beat me to that island by one or two turns as well. However, I had some axemen handy to take it after it reached size 2 and before it had any culture. I had instead of settling the SW island chose to settle on Toku's landmass, which gave me a base so that when I did declare war, I could grab one or two of his cities. But now we're getting to the 1AD threshold, so I'll save that story for later. I mean really... as soon as you see an entire team headed by Toku, you pretty much know there's going to have to be conflict with them, right? They won't even open borders! (In fact, that was made me finally realize this was a team game, when Toku's teammates kept refusing OB out of character-- before that, I was just wondering how I met all three on the same turn when I could only see Toku :lol:

). OK... maybe I'm not the brightust bulb in the box. :blush:

I started this one to get an easy game in after being away for a while, just to get back into things... but this game is harder than a normal Noble level game for sure. A LOT harder. But I should be able to handle it. :king:

If only I have enough time to finish it.

I won't be a fast finish, because on the low levels I tend to get wonder-crazy. So far I've got the Oracle (Monarchy?), Great Lighthouse, Great Library, and Collossus. But I'm sure there will be more to come.

Dhoomstriker · Jan 10, 2011

kcd_swede said:
The teams have similar troubles trading with each other, though.

Are you certain about this point? Unlike our "team" one one, they are trading from a team of three to another team of three--I would think that techs would again take on a "normal" value when being traded between those teams.

I was just wondering how I met all three on the same turn when I could only see Toku

If you think that's bad, I was wondering the exact same thing (why I met multiple AIs at once without seeing their units) and I DID remember that it was a team game! :lol:

But I should be able to handle it. If only I have enough time to finish it.

That's the beauty of the WOTMs... plenty of time to play them! :goodjob:

kcd_swede · Jan 11, 2011

Dhoomstriker said:
Are you certain about this point? Unlike our "team" one one, they are trading from a team of three to another team of three--I would think that techs would again take on a "normal" value when being traded between those teams.

Oh yeah.

They are giving a tech to three opponents to get a tech for three on the team. That's a bit fairer.

Grifftavian · Jan 29, 2011

Where did you settle?
1SE of starting location, on the Plains Hill, for the extra hammer in the city square, better city defense, & one extra forest for potential chopping in the BFC.

Did you get off the island?
No, not yet.

Have you made friends?
Signed an OB Treaty with HC of Inca, which made one with everyone on that team (Mehmed & Hannibal). I've avoiding adopting any religion so far, but plan on adopting Pacifism later, so will have to pick one soon. I've founded Confucianism, IIRC only Hinduism (founded by Toku) has spread to one of my cities.

Have you built any shiny, pretty things?
The Great Lighthouse & The Pyramids in Moscow. The Parthenon in Rostov.

Have you decided on a victory condition?
Possibly Culture, if I can get a few more religions, otherwise its Alpha Centauri or bust. I got a late start on this game, so I'll have to hurry to meet the deadline. :run:

WOTM 33 Notes - Session 1 - 4000 BC to 1 AD

Spoiler :

Arnold_T · Jan 29, 2011

Off to an OK start I think, but Arg!, missed a couple of Wonders that I went for.
At 1 AD I'm at 9 Cities and 36 pop.

re: Where did you settle?
1SE of starting location, on the Plains Hill, which was good for hammers at the start. got Stonehenge. But was a little shy on beakers later on going for the Oracle. Delayed completing the Oracle for a few turns waiting for research on CoL. ended up losing the Oracle by one turn (800BC I think).
Then tried for Great Lighthouse but lost that one too (by four turns). Working on Pathenon and Colussus now.

RE: Did you get off the island?
Yes, got off early to grab the Marble site before Toku got there.
Also settled the Copper, Clams, Wheat site on the Big Island SW of the Capital.
Also just settled the Sugar, Clans site two island SW of that. I'm hoping that site will block expansion from rivals while I fill in some other good sites.

Have you made friends?
Got what I thought was an amazing tech trade from the Incas (Math, PoloyTheism, Ardhery and HBR for just Code of Laws.) But now reading some other posts here, I guess it's not so great considering I gave it to three rivals not one.
Incas wanted Open borders but I rejected them for now, thinking I didn't want them settling in my territory.
I haven't had any religions spread to me yet. but will probably avoid adoptin a religion till I know which team I'm aligned with.
Also, I've only met two of the three teams since I have sent exploring boats around the world.

re: Have you built any shiny, pretty things?
Stonehenge. 4 turns away from Colossus, and 6 from Parthenon.

Have you decided on a victory condition?
Not yet. Probably no culture though since I have no religions. Probably not conquest or dom since I don't think I have enough time to complete the game that way. probably dip or space.

Dhoomstriker · Jan 30, 2011

Arnold_T said:
Incas wanted Open borders but I rejected them for now, thinking I didn't want them settling in my territory.

You might be missing out on some nice Foreign Trade Routes there, particularly if you have mapped out a path to his Cities.

Arnold_T · Jan 30, 2011

thanks Dhoomstriker, I didn't know Open Borders was a necessary requirement for Trade routes (makes sense though). Guess I shoulda read the documentation.

I did eventually open up borders with the Incas and got foreign trade routes. I noticed that initially I only got 2 in Moscow, and 1 in Rostov. But no other foreign trade routes. Why only 1 in Rostov? and why none in other cities? What determines that?

DynamicSpirit · Jan 30, 2011

Do you mean two trade routes in total or two foreign ones?

Each city is allowed a certain number of trade routes based on the technologies you have (one initially, two once you discover currency, etc.) but also if you have the great lighthouse, coastal cities get an extra two.

Once the game has verified how many trade routes a city is allowed to have, it tries to create the most profitable trade routes it can for that city. The restrictions here are:

1. You can only have one trade route to a given city. So for example, if Moscow has a trade route to Cuzco, Cuzco is now 'taken' so none of your other cities can have a trade route to Cuzco on that turn.
2. There has to be a navigable route by road, river or sea between the two cities concerned. So for example when you first found a city, if that city has no road, river or coastal connections, it won't have any trade routes at all until you build a connection (usually by building a road to the city. That's why a lot of people are careful to have roads prepared before founding 2nd and 3rd cities etc.)

I would imagine the answer to your question lies in checking the cities against those conditions.

Arnold_T · Feb 1, 2011

Thanks DS,
that helps a lot. turns out the Incas only had 3 cities that I could get trade routes to.
Later I was perplexed why I had trade routes with the Romans, but not the English (who I also had open borders with, and who I had previously had trade routes with). I then figured out that the English had adopted Mercantlism, so they weren't available for trading.

Arnold_T · Feb 1, 2011

I'm not sure I'll be able to finish this game by the deadline. Just trying to figure out what my least time-intensive strategy would be, and if it would work.
I'm thinking Space, since I have a tech lead by four or five techs, and have avoided war so far. Though I find the international relations had to understand in the team game. I know I have annoyed some teams for trading with their worst enemies, but I can't tell who is worst enemies of who, or if I am the worst enemy of anyone.
Anyone figured out how to tell that?

adrianj · Feb 1, 2011

Arnold_T said:
I'm not sure I'll be able to finish this game by the deadline. Just trying to figure out what my least time-intensive strategy would be, and if it would work.
I'm thinking Space, since I have a tech lead by four or five techs, and have avoided war so far. Though I find the international relations had to understand in the team game.

I find diplo victories to be the least time consuming - but in this game it would be problematic getting the AI to vote for you if you aren't going for a diplomination. And later game wars can be quite time consuming. Space may be your best choice.

Edit: A late switch to culture isn't always so bad either, if you happen to have a few religions. If you aren't spending too much time optimising things, then most of the time is spent pushing enter.

I know I have annoyed some teams for trading with their worst enemies, but I can't tell who is worst enemies of who, or if I am the worst enemy of anyone.
Anyone figured out how to tell that?

You'll know if you are the worst enemy of someone by asking to trade anything to them, and the option will be in red with something like "we will never trade with you, our worst enemy". Finding out who their worst enemy is if it isn't you... I'm not entirely sure how to find out without BtS+BUFFY. Perhaps try the "What do you think of..." option and see what they say? I've never really tried, but maybe something obvious comes up?

babybluepants · Feb 1, 2011

I think you may have to keep bringing up the diplo screen until they say who it is in their initial message. There might be an easier way I don't know of...

Arnold_T · Feb 1, 2011

thanks for the input adrianj. what's "diplomination"? doing Domination till you have enough land to win the diplo vote?

adrianj · Feb 1, 2011

Arnold_T said:
what's "diplomination"? doing Domination till you have enough land to win the diplo vote?

I don't know what the "official" term for it is, but I thought that sounded good

You are almost correct - it is where you basically play for domination, but the aim isn't to claim any % of land area, instead only worrying about having >60% of the world's population so that you can vote yourself diplomatic victor. It's not quite as tough as a full domination win since you can often boost your population much higher than the AI on less land using a lot of biology powered farms. Though it does require you to maintain a decent enough economy to research up to Mass Media.

Note: The strategy isn't so effective for BtS, because you must have at least one AI vote for you.

WOTM 33 First Spoiler - 1 AD

babybluepants

Deity