digitalcraft
Warlord
That doesn't convince me you're right so much as that you're stubborn. 
Would Incas still be overpowered without Quechua?
- Thread starter Culture Bomb
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AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Incas suffer obsolescence 
It's like go to war fast or bust ;P (or play small map or bust) sucks imho ;P
It's like go to war fast or bust ;P (or play small map or bust) sucks imho ;Pvranasm
Deity
maybe for tAP victories is Ramesses better (I actually used him for my only registered deity win), but regarding all victory types in HOF tables Inca has no competition and if some of those HOFers invest time it will very soon show.
edit:
but I have to say even STW thinks Inca being better for TAP too... as he argued in HOF section of forum in the discussions about making the filter TMIT mentioned and to me STW is one of best TAP players (maybe even the best), so if he says something about viability/best option for TAP then it has pretty big value
TheMeInTeam
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STW was arguing from a speed point and not a consistency point (such is the reality of HoF, if you fail just start over with another god mode start). The guaranteed fast prophet in Egypt truly does make them best at attaining civ IV's most broken VC on a consistent bases, and hatty is barely worse at it than ram.
I struggle to accept that as valid reasoning for ranking a civ #1, but it IS technically a victory condition...sigh. Nevertheless, that advantage also vanishes in MP (you could only win diplo in MP in rare circumstances), and Inca is better for the other 4 major VC. On a % basis I suspect Inca has a better win rate in SP and MP, though that will only ever be a guess since it's not like we have actual data on it.
But whatever. I could argue USA or maybe Germany is the best civ if you "only play late era starts". It's one of those subjective things, we're already assuming a lot by assuming ancient era, barbs on, single player, no advanced start, etc when rating these civs.
I struggle to accept that as valid reasoning for ranking a civ #1, but it IS technically a victory condition...sigh. Nevertheless, that advantage also vanishes in MP (you could only win diplo in MP in rare circumstances), and Inca is better for the other 4 major VC. On a % basis I suspect Inca has a better win rate in SP and MP, though that will only ever be a guess since it's not like we have actual data on it.
But whatever. I could argue USA or maybe Germany is the best civ if you "only play late era starts". It's one of those subjective things, we're already assuming a lot by assuming ancient era, barbs on, single player, no advanced start, etc when rating these civs.
That doesn't convince me you're right so much as that you're stubborn.
pwned.
Without other restrictions, banning Inca or crippling Quechuas in Multiplayer is an amusing thought - banning the cure to the real disease. Mali is going to be obnoxious without a reliable counter.
I agree Huayna Capac is the strongest default leader if we don't want to cheese the Apostolic Palace every game. But not by all that much, taking Quechuas out of the picture would leave him at decent. IND/FIN is good but doesn't stand out among the other good combinations - one of (ORG, IND, FIN, PHI), no (PRO, AGG). One economy trait is helpful, a second doesn't help more than a decent support trait.
Terrace is a very solid UB but not top 3 material (Sacrificial Altar, Rathouse, Ikhanda). There is no synergy with the rest of Huayna Capac's advantages. Arguably the opposite - he's nicely positioned to attempt Stonehenge which renders a free early culture source less important.
Mehmed's traits with Terrace would be interesting: vastly reduced investment to make a city profitable. but without a strong UU I'm not sure that would be overpowered either and is giving up plenty compared to the original: Hammam is very good, Janissary solid, Agri/Wheel are excellent starting techs.
Incidentally, obsolescence isn't that big a problem with Quechuas - they allow 101 cute little upgrade tricks. Mass upgrades to Riflemen can be pretty cool.
Almost cost-efficient with a commerce-focused economy and Financial leader. Free promotion. Ability to channel the commerce side of the economy into an army upon reaching Rifling.
I agree Huayna Capac is the strongest default leader if we don't want to cheese the Apostolic Palace every game. But not by all that much, taking Quechuas out of the picture would leave him at decent. IND/FIN is good but doesn't stand out among the other good combinations - one of (ORG, IND, FIN, PHI), no (PRO, AGG). One economy trait is helpful, a second doesn't help more than a decent support trait.
Terrace is a very solid UB but not top 3 material (Sacrificial Altar, Rathouse, Ikhanda). There is no synergy with the rest of Huayna Capac's advantages. Arguably the opposite - he's nicely positioned to attempt Stonehenge which renders a free early culture source less important.
Mehmed's traits with Terrace would be interesting: vastly reduced investment to make a city profitable. but without a strong UU I'm not sure that would be overpowered either and is giving up plenty compared to the original: Hammam is very good, Janissary solid, Agri/Wheel are excellent starting techs.
Incidentally, obsolescence isn't that big a problem with Quechuas - they allow 101 cute little upgrade tricks. Mass upgrades to Riflemen can be pretty cool.
Almost cost-efficient with a commerce-focused economy and Financial leader. Free promotion. Ability to channel the commerce side of the economy into an army upon reaching Rifling.
kjnoren
Warlord
I think one needs to keep the game settings and type in mind in these discussions. Unrestricted or restricted leaders, MP or SP, map type, starting era, and difficulty level all play roles here, and can lead to vastly varying answers.
The reason Inca is often banned at Realms Beyond isn't really because the Inca are overpowered. It's because for the style of MP that has developed there it has turned into a One Right Choice, just like FIN and India (who is considered over-powered simply on the strength of the fast worker). The terrace is simply so useful and easily built that it trumps other considerations. And an Inca civ in every game is boring, just as if every game had all-FIN leaders.
But the ban list varies from game to game, and some games use other mechanisms (random picks, point systems, et c).
The reason Inca is often banned at Realms Beyond isn't really because the Inca are overpowered. It's because for the style of MP that has developed there it has turned into a One Right Choice, just like FIN and India (who is considered over-powered simply on the strength of the fast worker). The terrace is simply so useful and easily built that it trumps other considerations. And an Inca civ in every game is boring, just as if every game had all-FIN leaders.
But the ban list varies from game to game, and some games use other mechanisms (random picks, point systems, et c).
TheMeInTeam
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In the context of Rome, Mali, and Zulu being allowed in MP, banning Inca makes absolutely no sense though, especially if unrestricted so that you don't have to consider the FIN ban.
Terrace materially better than prats or the ikhanda? No. Terrace consistently better than the best early game UU in MP (Skirmisher)? No. That's true even with expansive. Also, the terrace value varies with how often you need a border pop to work good resources in your cities. If you can settle ~8 but only 2-3 need border pops to gain all resources, it's even weaker compared to other top stuff that RB won't ban.
Skirmisher is absolutely insane. Nobody would sensibly attack a mali player early, and the mali player is extremely threatening on top of that. You could really cheese mali with protective but the loss of a serious factor trait after the opening leaves it questionable. Still, drill 1 shock skirmishers have to be some of the worst news out there.
Terrace materially better than prats or the ikhanda? No. Terrace consistently better than the best early game UU in MP (Skirmisher)? No. That's true even with expansive. Also, the terrace value varies with how often you need a border pop to work good resources in your cities. If you can settle ~8 but only 2-3 need border pops to gain all resources, it's even weaker compared to other top stuff that RB won't ban.
Skirmisher is absolutely insane. Nobody would sensibly attack a mali player early, and the mali player is extremely threatening on top of that. You could really cheese mali with protective but the loss of a serious factor trait after the opening leaves it questionable. Still, drill 1 shock skirmishers have to be some of the worst news out there.
kjnoren
Warlord
*shrug* It really comes down to which type of game that has developed in a community. Rome isn't that well thought of as a Civ - it's not usually picked in RB MP games. Zulu is viewed as OK (especially with AGG for cheap ikhandas), and Mali as a good but not top pick. Generally, the play style there emphasises using tech to gain an advantage in the middle or late game, not early rushes or warfare.
The most popular civ (after India and Inca) there right now is probably Egypt due to excellent starting techs and a very good UU.
The most popular civ (after India and Inca) there right now is probably Egypt due to excellent starting techs and a very good UU.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
"Rome isn't that well thought of as a Civ" Fcuk I am saddened but I see Ur point.
TheMeInTeam
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Gee, i wonder why that might be. Perhaps it might have something to do with the settings? Just a little bit?
The best 2 mover UU and fast workers are regarded well there! Imagine that
!tdy99
Prince
Those civs and their three UUs, eh?
Agreed on this one. IND is, IMHO, a mid-level trait, and even lower than mid-level if you're a big warmonger who plans on just letting the AI build the wonders while you build soldiers and take the wonders for yourself. In some scenarios I almost think the double-production Forge is more helpful
FIN, ORG, PHI, these are all top level traits in my books. Some would replace PHI with CHA or EXP, and I wouldn't argue too loudly. IND doesn't quite make the cut.
I'm curious why Spiritual didn't make your list, even as a mid level trait?
I haven't been on the board much in the last year, but back when I used to post frequently the prevailing wisdom seemed to be that Spiritual was the strongest or second strongest trait.
Gee, i wonder why that might be. Perhaps it might have something to do with the settings? Just a little bit?
The best 2 mover UU and fast workers are regarded well there! Imagine that
What settings???
The only ones I can think of is high maintenance and lush maps, which do occur but are hardly the rule.
I don't see your point on Egypt/India?
TheMeInTeam
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Fast. Game. Speeds.
These bias the mechanics so far towards WC and FW that it's not even funny.
That's also honestly why games turn into tech races. In the interest of #turns, they go with quick game speed, but that ruins the importance of defense to *some* extent, because the rate at which units are produced relative to movement. On normal speed the rate is less ridiculous and standing forces are far more threatening.
Yes because soooo many PBEM/PB (averagi_ng at a turn a day) could be played at epic/marathon.
[Seriously are even gamespy games played on those speeds????]
As for normal, many games have been played on that speed (I'm teaming in one ATM) so I don't see your point.
You are definitely exaggerating though (especially for Egypt...), both remain top pics in normal speed games (neck, RBs playing Egypt in the demogame, IIRC) while I've never observed a all-powerful Mali on normal (nor even one where the skirmishers made any difference).
[Seriously are even gamespy games played on those speeds????]
As for normal, many games have been played on that speed (I'm teaming in one ATM) so I don't see your point.
You are definitely exaggerating though (especially for Egypt...), both remain top pics in normal speed games (neck, RBs playing Egypt in the demogame, IIRC) while I've never observed a all-powerful Mali on normal (nor even one where the skirmishers made any difference).
I always thought the Inca would be a top-tier Civ without the ability to Quecha rush.
Industrious is a very powerful and flexible trait. I've heard arguments that it's the best economic trait. Financial is financial. The Terrace takes one of the three must-build buildings in the game (Barracks, Granary, Forge) and, upon completion, grants free border pops before religions have spread. Nothing to balk at there.
Starting techs are decent, albeit not as good as (e.g.) Egypt's.
The Quecha would be a good and well-balanced UU on higher levels if they simply provided for barb defense, and the AIs proper knew how to react when faced with a Quecha rush.
If it's not obvious from the above, I only play SP.
Industrious is a very powerful and flexible trait. I've heard arguments that it's the best economic trait. Financial is financial. The Terrace takes one of the three must-build buildings in the game (Barracks, Granary, Forge) and, upon completion, grants free border pops before religions have spread. Nothing to balk at there.
Starting techs are decent, albeit not as good as (e.g.) Egypt's.
The Quecha would be a good and well-balanced UU on higher levels if they simply provided for barb defense, and the AIs proper knew how to react when faced with a Quecha rush.
If it's not obvious from the above, I only play SP.
I'm curious about this - is it mainly because of fail gold?
Pretty much this. I haven't thought about it enough to make the assertion myself, but I think a lot depends on the difficulty/game speed. On Normal Speed/Size/Deity, a sudden infusion of cash with a failed SoZ can allow you to get to Music first, which grabs you the free Great Artist. Then, the sudden infusion of cash with a failed Sistine Chapel can let you get to Lib first. Along the way, the sudden infusion of cash from a failed University of Sankore can let you upgrade 15 Horse Archers to Cuirassiers. And so on.
This is the speed/setting I usually play. On a Large map, epic speed, lower difficulty Organized might be a better economic trait (I honestly don't know).
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