Wow....plus SMAC mod reborn!

[asioasioasio]

I rather think of near clone (so SMAC with some additions from civ3 and civ4 + some cool changes in sdk python that wasn't in that games).

I see your point - and if it would be SMAC game (so there'll be the same leaders or at least fractions and techtree improvments, buildings, wonders, units workshop - or at least solution remebering the ol' good SMAC - without drones, aliens, fungus, it won't be SMAC anymore) , i'll be very happy.

If it would change game more - it's ok but it might be risky - on the one hand you have clone with clone climat - on the secon you have complitly new game wich might be much more intersting but it couuld have some problems with climate, etc.

I won't take the risk what is better = you'll choose it, and i could help you with models sometimes (and maybe ideas

BTW i'm glad the 3d terrain is possible

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

SMAC world, new rules.

I'm very attached to the World, the leaders, the setting, the ideologies, the quotations, the fungus, the cyborgs Only a few game features really standout to me to be decidedly better then Civ4, the Social Engineering system is the big one. Workshop was actually kinda a mess in my opinion.

 

[asioasioasio]

Ok that's cool - it won't loose climate this way

 

[GeoModder]

I would like to see this mod as much SMAC as possible. It was great idea with great concepts - so i vote for SMAC civilizations, SMAC Buildings, SMAC workshop and Unit design, SMAC Civics, SMAC Techtree, SMAC Improvments. SMAC Terraforming - it would be great to make 3D terrain - similliar as it was in SMAC - is this possible?

Similar terrain is already done (by Rubin). Woodelf created a few facilities which would fit nicely in a SMAC mod, plus a futuristic improvement.
If you haven't seen it yet, the C4AC forum on Apolyton has some pics and such.

And i can sometimes help - i begin working on brother Lal's cityset
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145947&d=1168828228
- i had this filling i had to make this asap. This is just sample - the next buildings would be slightly different in geometry and i would add the elevated railway

That's a great job, mate. Did you plan on a true cityset as we know it in Civ4 with around 16 of such buildings? If so, I suggest to put some variation in size and composition.
What's the polycount of this building already?

 

[woodelf]

That is awesome asioasioasio. Simply awesome.

 

[Silver]

I've actually been mulling over the workshop vs civ-style units debate.

Personally, I really enjoyed the workshop feature of SMAC (laser artillery-esque issues aside) But I don't really think it would be all that easy to integrate into Civ4.

I mean I'm sure it's possible, but how big an endeavour would it be to make something functionally akin to the SMAC interface? My guess is that it would be very substantial, and I don't know how beneficial it would be to overall gameplay.

One idea I had would be to have a city produce the bassic chassis (so a city would build "Infantry" or "Rover" etc...) and then have a second type of XP-like number attached to it (lets call it equipoment points or EP for now, I'm sure other can come up with a better name).

Once a unit is produced, you then select it's loadout, each option costing a certain number of EP's. So, a laser would cost 2 EPs while a shard launcher might cost 9. Additional equipment like artillery, amphibious, infiltration, and the like can cost EP's and/or XPs, with other upgrades falling into the exclusively XP realy, like in current games.

Additional possibilities would be having different variants of the chassis, so we would have "Rover I" and "Rover III" etc, with each mark having upgraded EP values and increased cost. Perhaps instead of (or in addition to) that, have the cost come out of your total energy when you spend EP's. This would also allow for minimums, meaning you can take that shard cannon, but you're gonna need a level II chassis to do it.

This also gives a very definable in game value to toy with. So, for example, the skunkworks could give +2 EP to all units built in that city. Or have a wonder that reduces the overall energy cost of spending EPs, or a wonder/premotion that allows units to use nano-tech to salvage the weapons and improvements of units that have fallen in the field. I really like this one, as if you defeat a unit with a higher tech weapon, you can potentially take and use that weapon, without nessecarialy having the ability to make new ones. (although perhaps a boost to research in that tech might be appropriate)

That sort of thing would be very interesting, I think, allowing for the same customizability as in SMAC. Best part is, it would do it without having to resort to all new interface concerns, as it would you the existing inteface, working the same way as premotions do currently (although perhaps we might wanna change the EP colour to green and XP to blue, to more easily differentiate, or something)

Major problems would be, first and foremost, getting the AI to use this system well (although I would think it would be at least as easy as teaching it top use the workshop, and the AI seems to use premotions fairly well right now) and more optionally, finding some way around the micromanagement of having to design each and every unit. Perhaps indeed having some sort of simple workshop after all, allowing you to select templates, wchic you can then apply to units with enough EP/XP.

Just a couple of random thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I think your solution is the most easily doable.

For social engineering, should we stick with the 4x4 scheme or add more variety ? I think that we must keep the ten categories output. IMO, the futuristic society should be ideologies along the way of AussieLurker ( Eudaimonia, Cybernetic, Survival, ... even Eugenics for some extra contents )

 

[woodelf]

Your ideas Silver are close to what I been asking around about checking feasibility. Keep the brainstorming coming!

 

[Gerikes]

I've actually been mulling over the workshop vs civ-style units debate.

Personally, I really enjoyed the workshop feature of SMAC (laser artillery-esque issues aside) But I don't really think it would be all that easy to integrate into Civ4.

I mean I'm sure it's possible, but how big an endeavour would it be to make something functionally akin to the SMAC interface? My guess is that it would be very substantial, and I don't know how beneficial it would be to overall gameplay.

One idea I had would be to have a city produce the bassic chassis (so a city would build "Infantry" or "Rover" etc...) and then have a second type of XP-like number attached to it (lets call it equipoment points or EP for now, I'm sure other can come up with a better name).

Once a unit is produced, you then select it's loadout, each option costing a certain number of EP's. So, a laser would cost 2 EPs while a shard launcher might cost 9. Additional equipment like artillery, amphibious, infiltration, and the like can cost EP's and/or XPs, with other upgrades falling into the exclusively XP realy, like in current games.

Additional possibilities would be having different variants of the chassis, so we would have "Rover I" and "Rover III" etc, with each mark having upgraded EP values and increased cost. Perhaps instead of (or in addition to) that, have the cost come out of your total energy when you spend EP's. This would also allow for minimums, meaning you can take that shard cannon, but you're gonna need a level II chassis to do it.

This also gives a very definable in game value to toy with. So, for example, the skunkworks could give +2 EP to all units built in that city. Or have a wonder that reduces the overall energy cost of spending EPs, or a wonder/premotion that allows units to use nano-tech to salvage the weapons and improvements of units that have fallen in the field. I really like this one, as if you defeat a unit with a higher tech weapon, you can potentially take and use that weapon, without nessecarialy having the ability to make new ones. (although perhaps a boost to research in that tech might be appropriate)

I think this is a pretty solid idea. I've sort of been against the idea of allow units to "equip" themselves after they're created, but the main reason is because it would cause units to all be created basically equal, but with different skills. I think that while on a horizontal level this makes units different, it really only goes one dimension. I shouldn't be pidgeon-holed to making an army of the latest and greatest just because that's what is latest and greatest. If I want to make an army of older/weaker units (but less expensive = quicker to make = more numerous), I should be able to do that. In Civ4, you basically have the current units, and perhaps one generation back. I don't think that's enough options. In SMAC, you can create anything, but the interface is clunky as all hell. Getting the power of SMAC with an interface that is so abstracted that people don't even realize that they're "workshopping" their units I think is key.

This would be a good compromise, I think. The reason I truly am partial to it is that you are allowed to create more than one type of each "chassis", ones of varying amount of EP's (plus, the "salvage" idea is just great.. reminds me of C&C). This allows you to make a weaker 5-turn unit with no real weapon or armor but say has a cloaking ability and decent speed to use as a scout, or take up the task of creating a 30-turn behemoth with the latest weaponry, armor and abilities.

One thing I would mention is that if these would probably be done ALA spells in FFH (which Woodelf has been proposing, and your idea if very similar to), whereas the equipment is selected as an action when the unit is selected. I think it would be wise to make sure that a unit can only equip themselves while in a base, otherwise you can move your un-equipped units to the field, see what you're up against, and equip them in the middle of nowhere.

That sort of thing would be very interesting, I think, allowing for the same customizability as in SMAC. Best part is, it would do it without having to resort to all new interface concerns, as it would you the existing inteface, working the same way as premotions do currently (although perhaps we might wanna change the EP colour to green and XP to blue, to more easily differentiate, or something)

Yes, a simple color-scheme does wonders for an intuitive interface.

Major problems would be, first and foremost, getting the AI to use this system well (although I would think it would be at least as easy as teaching it top use the workshop, and the AI seems to use premotions fairly well right now) and more optionally, finding some way around the micromanagement of having to design each and every unit. Perhaps indeed having some sort of simple workshop after all, allowing you to select templates, wchic you can then apply to units with enough EP/XP.

Just a couple of random thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em.

AI is always a problem, but you're right in that the promotion code can be used as a good structure for creating this.

If you are willing to give up some more ideas, please feel free. I think you have a knack for this sort of thing.

 

[Maniac]

This was a sticking point in SotM as well. It's a terrific mechanic [growing terrain improvements], but as is it's useless on a colonial planet.

Self-replicating nano-machines?

 

[woodelf]

Self-replicating nano-machines?

I could live with that, but how would you rationalize "working" the tile? I like the idea actually.

 

[Maniac]

Err... because it's pointless to let machines grow in a tile you're not planning to use?

Or do you mean how to rationalize people working the tile? I guess there will always be people necessary for the maintenance of windmills, greenhouses, hydro plants near rivers, mines...

 

[woodelf]

Err... because it's pointless to let machines grow in a tile you're not planning to use?

Or do you mean how to rationalize people working the tile? I guess there will always be people necessary for the maintenance of windmills, greenhouses, hydro plants near rivers, mines...

I mean the latter.

 

[gnome]

Regarding unit workshop:

I like the idea of something that gives the user the flexibility of the unit workshop without the micromanagement. But, I can't speak stronger on this point: I would like to see something more interesting than just: "Ok, i've got shard weaponry now, I'll just make units that are exactly the same only with shard weapons instead of chaos weapons". I think the stats of a unit have more to do than just its components... think grenadier vs. musket in Civ4... both are basic gunpowder infantry units, but very different in execution.

Perhaps certain technologies lend a whole new look and animation to a unit. What's more fun than seeing an unidentified unit approaching you and say "What the hell's that?! I want one of those"

 

[asioasioasio]

That's a great job, mate. Did you plan on a true cityset as we know it in Civ4 with around 16 of such buildings? If so, I suggest to put some variation in size and composition.
What's the polycount of this building already?

Yes i plan to make this - with different geometry, skins, etc.

It's around 400 - i know it's much so the not all buildings would this tajmahal like roofs (it tooks so many triangles) and tower would be rarely used - so i think whole city set would be around 2000 - 3000 pollies - it's still much

BTW how much pollies has standard civ4 cityset, canyone check it? I don't have computer here. And how much can i get? The computer are better than those when civ4 was launched so i think when the number of triangles would be around 40% bigger - it won't be crime

But the bigest problem would be with Miriam and Gaians - seems to be high polly objects.

BTW anyone has more screenshots like this?
http://www.jucaushii.ro/images/screenshots/pc/Sid_Meiers_Alpha_Centauri/16.jpg

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

The graphcial packaging around Alpha Centauri is very scarce but you have a pretty good start with bro Lal. You should take a look to Impaler graphic request for slight differences suggesting city size.
"Exemple": the minimal size of Lal is like you have already done but without the additional structure on faces of the cone. You have the possibility to remove the onion-shaped roof. Doing that you got 2x2=4 buildings plus extrapolation based on various surroundings structures and you are done with this city set.

 

[evillueser]

I have a few suggestions…

First of all, as much as I like to see a direct SMAC clone for Civ4, a SMAC-like mod would be better. Several great aspects of SMAC (like Unit workshop) would be difficult to mod in.

Factions
I’m all for using the original SMAC civs (including the ones from the expansion). However I think at least a few new ones should be added, as long as they fit in the SMAC world. Rewriting some of the back-story for the original factions might also be a good idea, just to add something “new”.
Also, I would love to see a few new leaders. The different leaders could represent different aspects of the faction.

Another idea I came up with is Alignment. Every faction starts Tabula rasa, as a clean slate. Through civics/choosing the right techs/ building the right improvements and or wonders, a faction can become “evil”, “good” or something in between. For example, the Human Hive starts the game as a semi-totalitarian collective state. The basic views of the faction are not clearly defined. Over time the Human Hive can evolve into a socialist paradise or a 1984 police state.

Religion
For religion, you could use actual religions or political philosophy. A good idea is to divide them into 2 categories;
“Old earth Religion/philosophy “ and “ Centauri religion/Philosophy”

The first categories are the religions/ political philosophy developed on Earth; they should be available very early in the tech tree.

The second categories are the religions/Political philosophy developed on Centauri by the colonists. They should be available later in the tech tree.

For example; “Neo-Christianity” (think Lord's Believers) is a old earth religion, while the “Cult of Chiron” is an centauri religion



BTW if you need artwork for flags, Era pictures, Civics, Icons or whatever. I have a large collection of SF/Fantasy art you can use.

 

[loki1232]

Can I say i'd love to help and I've got some ideas but I don't actually know much about SMAC?

 

[Gerikes]

I have a few suggestions…

First of all, as much as I like to see a direct SMAC clone for Civ4, a SMAC-like mod would be better. Several great aspects of SMAC (like Unit workshop) would be difficult to mod in.

I say don't worry about what's "difficult" or not. Just throw the ideas out there, and if it's a great idea, but would take too much time to develop, so be it.

Religion
For religion, you could use actual religions or political philosophy. A good idea is to divide them into 2 categories;
“Old earth Religion/philosophy “ and “ Centauri religion/Philosophy”

The first categories are the religions/ political philosophy developed on Earth; they should be available very early in the tech tree.

The second categories are the religions/Political philosophy developed on Centauri by the colonists. They should be available later in the tech tree.

For example; “Neo-Christianity” (think Lord's Believers) is a old earth religion, while the “Cult of Chiron” is an centauri religion

I'm of the school of thought that religion might be taken out. The gameplay mechanics (affect of diplomacy, spreading) could remain the same, but what it actually is might be changed. I for one just finished reading "The God Delusion", so I'm not totally off changing how religion works into being "viruses", and when a "relgion" spreads to a base, it's actually the virus that spreads

But that's just my take, and not at all the final will of the project members.

Can I say i'd love to help and I've got some ideas but I don't actually know much about SMAC?

Well, I guess it would help to get a LITTLE bit of SMAC knowledge. Since we're mostly basing it off the world, you could probably read some of the outlines of the story, or go out and download the demo spiraing somewhere out there on the net.

I don't consider myself a SMAC-lore export. so don't think you need to be a SMAC freak to give out some ideas.

 

[woodelf]

I have a few suggestions…

First of all, as much as I like to see a direct SMAC clone for Civ4, a SMAC-like mod would be better. Several great aspects of SMAC (like Unit workshop) would be difficult to mod in.

Yeah, we're definitely heading away from a clone. It'll be SMAC-like. The Unit Workshop isn't going to be the same, but we have several cool alternatives.

Factions
I’m all for using the original SMAC civs (including the ones from the expansion). However I think at least a few new ones should be added, as long as they fit in the SMAC world. Rewriting some of the back-story for the original factions might also be a good idea, just to add something “new”.
Also, I would love to see a few new leaders. The different leaders could represent different aspects of the faction.

Yeah, we do some new blood, especially for larger maps.

Another idea I came up with is Alignment. Every faction starts Tabula rasa, as a clean slate. Through civics/choosing the right techs/ building the right improvements and or wonders, a faction can become “evil”, “good” or something in between. For example, the Human Hive starts the game as a semi-totalitarian collective state. The basic views of the faction are not clearly defined. Over time the Human Hive can evolve into a socialist paradise or a 1984 police state.

Alignment ala FfH hasn't been discussed yet.

Religion
For religion, you could use actual religions or political philosophy. A good idea is to divide them into 2 categories;
“Old earth Religion/philosophy “ and “ Centauri religion/Philosophy”

The first categories are the religions/ political philosophy developed on Earth; they should be available very early in the tech tree.

The second categories are the religions/Political philosophy developed on Centauri by the colonists. They should be available later in the tech tree.

For example; “Neo-Christianity” (think Lord's Believers) is a old earth religion, while the “Cult of Chiron” is an centauri religion

Religion was briefly touched upon. More ideas like these are very needed. Thanks.

BTW if you need artwork for flags, Era pictures, Civics, Icons or whatever. I have a large collection of SF/Fantasy art you can use.

Cool. We may be calling.