WW2: What if Spain had joined the Axis side during the war?

[Ace]

Malta was a british fortress since naploeonic times, and was massively fortified by the Knights of Malta, the air was the only door in, and that
why it invasion was never attempted.

Gib would have never hamstung the RN, as for the Italian navy, you can
have the best equipment in the world, but it's useless without the
will to fight.

True, Except that a Napoleanic fortress fortified by the Knights of Malta is not going to be a tough nut to crack in the 1940s. The reason it was never invaded is simply that Rommel, in his usual headstrong manner, attacked toward Egypt, instead of waiting for Kesselring to take Malta. The invasion had been "laid on", but Rommel convinced K that it could wait while he kept the pressure on the British in Egypt, and once the die was cast, there was no going back.

With Gib gone, the British would have had no access to the Med except for the Suez Canal. And with the Africa Korps supply lines unfettered, Rommel would have had enough supplies to take the Canal. It was difficult enough to get supplies to Malta from Gib. With the German air force based there, the Straits of Gib would have been closed to the british.

The Italian Navy was not the total "wimp" the British claimed it was. There were several small unit actions in which the Italian navy fought well. But that is irrelevant, because after the Germans took care of the Royal Navy, all the Italian navy had to do was ensure the safety of the supplies and troop transports against little to no opposition.

 

[Ozz]

True, Except that a Napoleanic fortress fortified by the Knights of Malta is not going to be a tough nut to crack in the 1940s.

The invasion had been "laid on", but Rommel convinced K that it could wait while he kept the pressure on the British in Egypt, and once the die was cast, there was no going back.

With Gib gone, the British would have had no access to the Med except for the Suez Canal. And with the Africa Korps supply lines unfettered,

The Italian Navy was not the total "wimp" the British claimed it was.

All the Italian navy had to do was ensure the safety of the supplies and troop transports against little to no opposition.

The Sea defenses are truely gigantic, far better than any modern ones even
corcerning the ancient designs, the air was the only way in, and the only
air weapon that could have a chance (and not a good one, was the german
air corps broken on Crete, The invasion of malta would have Iwo Jima look
like a picnic.

Gibr does not equal fall of Malta. No Malta, no sea supplies.

Yes, It was, It saw the British and RAN everytime, except for a few E-boats
and Frogmen. They couldn't even deliver to Africa with the help of a entire
German Air Corps based in Sicily, versus a Light cruiser and some destroyers
based on Malta (Force K).

 

[Zeekater]

Operation Pedestal in august '42:
after the failures of the convoys in june, it was necessairy to supply malta soon, operation Pedestal saw 14 merchantman, protected by 3 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 24 destroyers. Only 5 out of 14 merchantmen arrived, one carrying 12.000 tons of oil, without which the island would soon have had to surrender.
The surrender was planned on 31st of august, if the convoy hadn't arrived.

One can argue that when Gibraltar had been in German hands before august 1942, the luftwaffe and uboats would have had more time to attack, the escorting ships wouldn't have Gibraltar to return to (the capital ships (carriers, battleships) had to return to Gibraltar).

 

[Ozz]

Operation Pedestal in august '42:
after the failures of the convoys in june, it was necessairy to supply malta soon, operation Pedestal saw 14 merchantman, protected by 3 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 24 destroyers. Only 5 out of 14 merchantmen arrived, one carrying 12.000 tons of oil, without which the island would soon have had to surrender.
The surrender was planned on 31st of august, if the convoy hadn't arrived.

One can argue that when Gibraltar had been in German hands before august 1942, the luftwaffe and uboats would have had more time to attack, the escorting ships wouldn't have Gibraltar to return to (the capital ships (carriers, battleships) had to return to Gibraltar).

A stategic axis defeat. They tried and failed.

No Gibr, they would have run it from Suez.

 

[Ace]

A stategic axis defeat. They tried and failed.

No Gibr, they would have run it from Suez.

By the time the British had gotten a convoy around to and through the canal, Malta would have long been German. With Gib in German hands, the Italians could have carried Rommel's supplies to Africa by walking on U-Boats! without the Gib bottleneck, the Germans could have flooded the Med with them.

That German Air Corps hammered Malta into the ground and reduced Rommel's supply losses to an acceptable level. And severely handled the Royal Navy.

 

[Zeekater]

A stategic axis defeat. They tried and failed.

No Gibr, they would have run it from Suez.

The convoy went through Gibraltar on the 10th of August, it was the final effort to supply Malta before she was forced to surrender. The 'ohio' arrived on the 15th. If Gibraltar had been taken, the convoy would have had to go around Africa, through Suez, as you said. It took the convoy 5 days to go to Malta from Gibraltar, I have no idea how long it would have taken to go around the Cape, but it seems to me that it would be more then a month (when looking at a map, the distance around Africa is roughly at least 10 times that from gibraltar-malta, that's 50 days, while 20 was enough, so even if the ships can travel twice as fast around Africa, it still would have been too late). Surrender of Malta if no supplies arrived was planned at 31st of August, so going around the Cape would have taken too long, the island would have been under continious hassling by the Luftwaffe for that time, without supplies, without new aircraft to defend itself...

 

[Ozz]

Actually. A stategic defeat is not my opinion, though I agree with it,
it is the opinion of the German Naval attache seerving in Rome.
(Churchill's history of WW2)

If gib fell they would have planned a eastern convey and drawn from the
cape conveys. You can't do one "if" and expect no other hsitorical planning
changes.

Malta, important
Suez, important
Gib, not really important.

 

[Atlas14]

If Spain had joined the Axis, they would have sucked terribly. Their weopons were outdated, most still from WW1 and they were weak from the Spanish Civil War. The Americans/British/French would have been so pissed at the Spanish that they would completely bomb Spain off the map (if they had to).

The Pyreneese would have been a plus for Spain though. France was already surrounded, but another front would have brought even more destruction to France.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Had the Spanish joined in then Britain would immediately have sought to stir up Civil War once again. There would be still plenty of people willing to fight against ther Nationalists if they had proper support from the British. I am also certain that it wouldn't be long before Franco would regret his decision as British ships bombard his coastal towns, planes bomb his cities, his navy is sunk and his foreign trade limited to that with Nazi Europe whilst the Nationalist rebels attack throughout the North and Centre of Spain armed and coordinated by the S.O.E.

As for losing Gibralter...whilst this would have be a major hinderance in terms of providing planes to protect convoys in the Atlantic it would not have significantly affected the situation in Egypt. Most supplies went around the Cape and hell, if we'd had to pull out of Malta then it would have saved alot of ships that were otherwise lost trying to supply that exposed base.

As for Rommels oil supplies, it was ULTRA and the British Navy in the Eastern Mediterreanan that was doing the damage combined with a large and highly successful submarine element that the British had plenty of. Rommel was doomed to failure in Africa as long as the British put so much of their strength (and that of her Empire) into it whilst Hitler gave Rommel so little to work with until far too late so allowing a vast haul of prisoners when the Tunis position eventually collapsed.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

True, Except that a Napoleanic fortress fortified by the Knights of Malta is not going to be a tough nut to crack in the 1940s. The reason it was never invaded is simply that Rommel, in his usual headstrong manner, attacked toward Egypt, instead of waiting for Kesselring to take Malta. The invasion had been "laid on", but Rommel convinced K that it could wait while he kept the pressure on the British in Egypt, and once the die was cast, there was no going back.

With Gib gone, the British would have had no access to the Med except for the Suez Canal. And with the Africa Korps supply lines unfettered, Rommel would have had enough supplies to take the Canal. It was difficult enough to get supplies to Malta from Gib. With the German air force based there, the Straits of Gib would have been closed to the british.

The Italian Navy was not the total "wimp" the British claimed it was. There were several small unit actions in which the Italian navy fought well. But that is irrelevant, because after the Germans took care of the Royal Navy, all the Italian navy had to do was ensure the safety of the supplies and troop transports against little to no opposition.

What have you been smoking?

You say that the only thing the Italian Navy had to do was ensure the safety of supplies and troops transports. How about maybe defeating the British Navy in the Western and Eastern Med? How about attacking and destroying the Suez Canal, how about anything rather than sitting in port till you can sail away and surrender to the British!

The Italian Navy sucked, especially her submarines in the Atlantic that for their large numbers did nearly bugger all...the performance on the whole of the Italian Nation was pathetic throughout the war and was a burden to Hitler rather than a support.

 

[rilnator]

They weren't 100%, totally useless. Their human torpedoes had some success, and if it hadn't of been for the British raid on Taranto then Pearl Harbour may not have gone so well for the Japanese.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

They weren't 100%, totally useless. Their human torpedoes had some success, and if it hadn't of been for the British raid on Taranto then Pearl Harbour may not have gone so well for the Japanese.

Maybe if Pearl Harbour hadn't of been feasible Japan wouldn't have picked for herself an impossible fight.

 

[rilnator]

Nah, they wanted war. It would have been a shame to waste all those years and $ on military build up and then have peace.

 

[Adler17]

But they wanted to win the war. So they might have stopped the aggressions to build an even bigger fleet. Japan wouldn´t have attacked the US so early and Hitler wouldn´t have declared war on the US...

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

So the US would have found another excuse instead sooner or later

 

[TrailblazingScot]

But they wanted to win the war. So they might have stopped the aggressions to build an even bigger fleet. Japan wouldn´t have attacked the US so early and Hitler wouldn´t have declared war on the US...

Adler

You really don't like the fact that Germany was beaten in WW2

 

[Adler17]

I like the fact that Hitler- Germany was beaten. Nevertheless it is not inevitable that war with the US came without Hitler´s declaration...

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

Without America Russia would have been severely handled, America could not afford to let one country dominate Europe and the middle east, conflict was coming one way or the other with a meglomaniac in charge of Germany

 

[Zeekater]

You really don't like the fact that Germany was beaten in WW2

I always cheer for the Germans in those old warmovies
I wanted the panzers to go a bit faster during 'the battle of the bulge'
Those MG42 groups should have slaughtered Tom Hanks and co during the landing
In civ, I only play Germany, or other games like Close Combat

 

[Ace]

What have you been smoking?

You say that the only thing the Italian Navy had to do was ensure the safety of supplies and troops transports. How about maybe defeating the British Navy in the Western and Eastern Med? How about attacking and destroying the Suez Canal, how about anything rather than sitting in port till you can sail away and surrender to the British!

The Italian Navy sucked, especially her submarines in the Atlantic that for their large numbers did nearly bugger all...the performance on the whole of the Italian Nation was pathetic throughout the war and was a burden to Hitler rather than a support.

1: Reread my post. You glossed right over the part about "after the Germans took care of the Royal Navy"! My point was that all the Italians would have had to do was ferry the supplies over to Rommel, after the Germans had swept the Med clear of British planes and ships.

2: With Gib, Malta, And Crete in German hands, Rommel's supplies would have gotten through. That would have given him the means to take Egypt and the Suez Canal. Remember that the whole point of this "what if" theme is that Spain enters the war on Germany's side. If that had happened, it is reasonable to assume that Hitler's attention would have been drawn to the Med. And Raeder and Goering both pushed for a Med strategy, instead of the Russian attack, to knock England out of the war.

3: I merely said that the Italian Navy was not the complete "Wimp" that British Propaganda claims it was. I did not claim it was "super" navy. There is no question that ship for ship and man for man, the British navy was better, But, with them eliminated by the Germans, than, yes, the Italian navy was perfectly capable of hauling Rommel's supplies safely across the Med.

4: I suggest you do a little research on the Italian submarines in the battle of the Atlantic. They did sink a few ships even through they were not up to German standards, both technically and in training.