WWI in North America

[damnrunner]

Has anyone here read some of the alternative fiction books by Harry Turtledove? One of his better series is premised on the idea that the south won the civil war and then the USA and CSA (Confederate States of America) are at war with each other in WWI.

The history for this is actually plausible and involves General Macellen (I think its him) not intercepting Lee's troop movement plans early on in the Civil War. Consequently instead of fighting Lee to a stalemate, Lee woops his ass. Then the French and English blockade the USA and Lincoln has to sue for peace. (he also wrote a book about time travelers giving Robert E Lee AK 47s as well, which is fairly ludicrous)

WWI would consequently shape up differently with the resurgent and industrialized USA allied up with Germany. The CSA meanwhile is allied with France and England. North America is torn to shreds with the USA fighting a two front war with British Canada while the CSA faces massive slave revolts.

I have no skills at creating scenarios and doing this well would be a tall order for anyone. But hopefully there is some interest.

 

[Rey]

This forum is only for already-done scenarios, so your thread should go in the main one of Creation

 

[Falnax]

I would like to note that it is probobly not historically accurate for the CSA to have slaves in 1914, after all, with improved mechanization, slavery would have continued to become less and less profitable as the world supply of cotton increased. Hence, if the CSA dogmatically supported slavery over the intervening 50 years of history, it would be suffering from extreme poverty and cultural backwardness.

 

[kurdt]

I would like to note that it is probobly not historically accurate for the CSA to have slaves in 1914, after all, with improved mechanization, slavery would have continued to become less and less profitable as the world supply of cotton increased. Hence, if the CSA dogmatically supported slavery over the intervening 50 years of history, it would be suffering from extreme poverty and cultural backwardness.

NOT THAT I SUPPORT SLAVERY, BUT... it's easy to imagine slaves filling all of the menial jobs we have today, as it still takes massive amounts of labor to run those machines, even if it's not as concentrated in one industry as it used to be. I'm sure some slaves could even wind up in call centers, as that seems to be an industry that would benefit from less turn-over. Chinese companies get along very well paying "slave wages", and illegal immigrants here often treated poorly (although not to the degree of slaves) - something some people point to as the real reason California is as prosperous as it is.

 

[damnrunner]

Actually in the series slavery had been abolished and blacks were considered non-citizen residents with no rights........pretty much jimcrow laws to the extrem.

And I am sure we have all used that civic in civ 4

 

[Silica_Pathways]

Where's the download for this scenario ?

 

[Falnax]

There is none, this thread REALLY needs to be moved to the Creation and customization forum (If the mods would hurry up already).

As far as backstory goes, I think a more realistic idea than confederate battlefeild sucess (which never really had anything to do with the confederate plan for victory) would be an alternate outcome to the Trent affair. Essentially, the CSA sent two diplomats, John Mason and James Slidell, to France and England on the RMS Trent. However, the steamer was intercepted by an American warship and the diplomats were removed. Naturally, this greatly angered the pro-confederate English, and provoked France into supporting a war against the U.S. Luckily for the Union, Lincoln was smart enough to send the diplomats back to Europe in response to a British ultimatum. To give you an idea of how close the U.S came to war with England, there were nearly 100,000 troops mobilized in Canada to attack the U.S, and several loads of troop transports from Europe were sent before the U.S. backed down.

However, in alternate history, Mason and Slidell may very well have been hanged shortly after reaching America, provoking a massive invasion from Canada that broke up the U.S. war effort. On the map of a WW1 scenario, this could be reflected in the loss of the territory of Maine to the British.

In the actual scenario, it may be interesting to give the CSA a war with Mexico (since the CSA never really respected Mexican territorial claims at all) and then create a victory condition for peaceful reunification of the Unioun under a new constitution to end the war in North America.

 

[AngryPants]

I think the most likely possibility for a Confederate Victory would have been McClellan winning the Presidential Election in 1864, then reaching a peace settlement with the South.

 

[Krieghund]

Hence, if the CSA dogmatically supported slavery over the intervening 50 years of history, it would be suffering from extreme poverty and cultural backwardness.

Extreme poverty and cultural backwardness being different from reality how?

Seriously, I'm not making a jab at the modern day south, I'm considering how rough things were in North Alabama (where I grew up) before Roosevelt and the New Deal and TVA.

 

[snafusmith]

I was thinking of asking a very similar question, as I'm currently on his second book in the ww2 series (Setting Accounts: Return Engagement). I think it would be great to set up the scenario just after the civil war, and have it progress through the series. Here's a quick timeline:

1863: CSA gains independence

1881: 2nd Mexican War - CSA aquires Senora and Chihuahua from Mexica, England invades US from Canada, US invades CSA near Louiville, English bombard west coast cities, Utah rebels. No change in borders at end of war

1914-1918: Great war, i.e., ww1- End result, US regains Kentucky, 'Houston' (west TX), Sequoia (OK), northern VA, and parts of northern Senora. Quebec made Republic of Quebec (US pupet state), Canada as an occupied territory of the USA. Ireland independant from England

Late 1920s - Economic Downturn all of the world, rise of 'Freedom' Party in CSA (Facist Gov), Socialist Gov in USA.

1941: WW2 starts, CSA invades up through OH, trying to cut the USA in half. France invades Germany over territories lost in WW1, Russia invades Ukrane and E. Poland. England Invades Ireland. Japan fights USA in Pacific.

That's all I know about the timeline. I think this could be made into a great scenario. It would work along a rough timeline as shown above. It would work a lot like the American Revolution scenario that came with CIV4, with European and Asian players represented by units that spawn at given times. Depending on the player (USA or CSA), events would unfold differently.

Let me know what you guys think, if there's a lot of interest behind this, I'll be more than happy to volunteer my time.

-Smitty

 

[Swissempire]

Turtledove is amazing. I am intersted in helping on this mod, but i can't do any of the technical stuff, only the idea stuff. I think it owuld be awesom if you did a whole world mod, and start it after the great war: THe Civs could be

U.S.A
C.S.A
Empire of Mexico
Republic of Quebec
Ireland
Great Britain
German Empire
Japanese Empire
Empire of Brazil
Argentina
And a whole lot more. I post more later!

 

[snafusmith]

After I got back from class this afternoon, I was really psyched about this idea for a scenario. In preparation (and to spur development) I pieced to gether a shoddy WW2 CSA fighter skin:

Behold, the 'Hound Dog'

-Smitty

 

[Tahuti]

A few questions.

Would France be the epicentre of Fascism, and Germany a democratic government with Wilhelm II, possibly Wilhelm III as head of state? Is Russia Fascist and ruled by the tsars?

 

[Goblingrin]

I saw a LOT of scenarios based on the Turtledove series in the Civ II downloads. So the map and initial city placement can probably be "borrowed" from the scenarios.

If no one working on the game has Civ II, I could use the excuse to download the scenarios and send you screenshots from the editor...

I'll respond to the (alternate) historical questions later.

 

[snafusmith]

Kaiserguard:

It's kinda weird, so here is a breakdown of the different govs (all govs are historically acurate up to the early/late 1920s, these are how they have changed away from real life)

USA: Socialist increases in 1920s (first socialist president/congress)

CSU: Fascist gov 1933+

England: Nationalistic/Fascist overtones 1930s+ (Churchill prime minister). There's no mention of King/Queen, though we can assume they're still there

Germany: Kaiser (Wilhelm II) continues to rule after WW1. Dies 1941, replaced by son King Friedrich Wilhelm V of Prussia - Kaiser Friedrich I of Germany

France: Fascist overtones (Action France party similar to Freedom party in CSA)

Russian: Tsar manages to keep control, puts down red revolution. (There's honestly not much other than Russia, except that they put down the revolution and still have Alaska).

In terms of epicenters, I'm not sure who would be the center. Both N. America and Europe go in completely different directions from normal history. If there was any, the CSA would have to be the heart of fascism, and to a small degree France. The world doesn't have much democracy in it, nor much socialism. - The US gov. is run by socialist, but by no means to any extreme (the big focus is on unions, not really big gov. programs).


Goblingrin:

I'm gonna look at the Civ2 stuff this afternoon, I had no idea this was done before...


-Smitty

 

[damnrunner]

I'm glad to see that there is some interest in this scenario idea. If people are interested in actually working on this we should exchange email addresses I can be contacted at damnrunner@gmail.com. I have no experience making scenarios and will also be leaving the country in a few weeks so all I can really do is help get this started. I look forward to what could be a really fun scenario.

And damn now I wish I still had civ 2 I would love to go back and check out those old games.

 

[Goblingrin]

I haven't done any scenario creation either, but I can try to break down the old rules and event files, and check out the map. Working on the Civ 4 files might be asking for trouble, though, as the last computer language I felt comfortable programming in was BASIC (although I was pretty good at it 15 years ago).

 

[Falnax]

I'd like to get started creating a map, but am a bit confused how to go about doing so. Does anybody know how to disable X axis looping and polar ice caps? I know it can be done because its in the American Revolution scenario, but don't feel like going in to reverse engineer it. Some help with setting the date would be helpful as well.

As to the actual map, I was planning on mapping out North America up to Canada and all the way down to the Panama canal, featuring a Pacific Ocean controlled by CSA/Mexico, an Atlantic Ocean controlled by USA/Canada, and the Panama Canal owned by France or Germany. It might even be cool to put Japan, Korea, Hawaii and the pacific islands into the scenario, but that might be overreaching, as well as detrimental to load times.

The Panama Canal itself would be rather vital to the scenario, since each of the factions are heavily defended on land, control of the seas is one way to defeat one's enemies. WW1 Naval tactics often featured large minefeilds, which provided protection from invasion at the cost of trade losses, it would be interesting in game to have a minelayer naval unit which can create immobile mine units with respectable defense. Germany, meanwhile, affects the scenario mostly through its submarine fleet, which can cause severe damage to any nations naval force.

 

[snafusmith]

I also am in for any and all aspects of this scenario. So far, I've done basic changes to XML for my personal mod, some mapping, and a lot of new skins (though still working on perfecting them, which is why I've only released 1 or 2 a long time ago).

As for the map:
There are several OK N. American maps that might work. I played around with 2 of them a few nights ago to see how they might work (1 was huge and the other standard).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156907

This one looked good, but there is a lot of empty space up north, and to the south. Though it has great oceans for the inevitable naval battles between 4-5 countries. This is probably the one I would go for (other than a custom map) provided the creater had no problems.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152583
This one is also good, but because it's a huge map might deter players who's machines have issues with that size (mine doesn't). It has great amounts of room for menuvering (I don't think it would be good to include every litte town, only the major cities - as that would make the wars more fun). The biggest downside is that the oceans (particularly the pacific) are small. It also lacks cuba - which is one of the interesting pieces of the series.


From an academic standpoint, there should be no panama canal (it was never built in the series, as both the USA and CSA wanted it, so neither would let it be built). It would also be iffy to include pieces of Europe or Asia because (at least from my point of view) the focus is on the N. American conflicts. Events in Europe and Asia can be scripted in (Japanese attack on LA prior to WW2, etc) and still leave the map size/complexity fun yet playable to a majority of people.

Let me know what you all think - I'm up for helping out with any part of the project.

-Smitty

 

[Falnax]

The standard sized map looks like a nearly perfect map for the scenario, pretty much what I had in mind. As far as the Panama Canal goes, it seems like an absurd conflict of interest for both the USA and CSA to deny each other something of such benefit to both sides out of pure spite. It might even make sense for a neutral nation like France or Germany to build the canal to gain influence in North America. I think the strategic possibilities opened up by the canal are worth not following the books directly.

Of course, we could also try creating a map script at the bottom of the map which causes units to dissappear on one side of the map and reappear on the other side 5-10 turns later, representing a trip around South America. This would allow some degree of functionality. Another option is to make it be possible to build the canal in game, creating a special resource like "Canal Zone" available only in central America, so a civ either has to gain the confidence of the Government of Panama or Conquer the canal zone. Then, the civ can build a Panama Canal Great Wonder, which causes several tiles in Central America to turn to water, enabling rapid transit between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Another issue is the tech tree; I think a custom tech tree would be great for the scenario. Areas of development could include Landship Development, Airplane research, Submarine research, Chemical Weapons, and, of course, designing really really big artillery cannons. The tech tree could even go up to a WW2 level of technology, with mechanized warfare, aircraft carriers, missles, and the Manhattan Project.