XML tags for the Planetfall Leaders

[Pfeffersack]

I added civic aversion diplomacy penalties.

Any ideas on the exact values for the penalties?

Dee: Hybrid - Free Market
Miriam: Terraformed - Knowledge
Morgan: Free Market - Autarky (I just changed it from Planned)
Hive: Police State - Democratic
Sparta: Power - Wealth
Zak: Knowledge - Fundy
Lal: Democratic - Police State

I'd suggest that factions whose civic aversion is another faction's favourite civic should give a smaller diplo penalty. Too pre-determined diplomacy may not be fun.

So Morgan, Santiago and Zakharov could give a bigger penalty. Perhaps Lal could be the exception to my own suggestion and also give a big penalty? Not sure.

Sounds resonable. Just to clarify...the way those negative civic effects work is a mirror of the positive effects? (so: it can be accesses over the leaderhead XML; the leader, which has an aversion would either never switch to the hated civic or if, then the penalty would not applies; there are three values affecting initial penalty, time increments in which the relations detoriate further and a maximum for that continued worsening).

In case the values can be set over the leaderhead.xml I would of course need the modified one to do the changes.

 

[GeoModder]

I would suggest that if a Faction runs another faction's favorite civic while it doesn't run its own favorite civic if that is in the same column gives at least a double benefit diplomacy-wise.

 

[Maniac]

Sounds resonable. Just to clarify...the way those negative civic effects work is a mirror of the positive effects?

No I'm afraid there's only a direct and immediate negative for now. They all have this line right now:
<iHatedCivicAttitudeChange>-1</iHatedCivicAttitudeChange>

I would suggest that if a Faction runs another faction's favorite civic while it doesn't run its own favorite civic if that is in the same column gives at least a double benefit diplomacy-wise.

Then why would a human player ever run his favourite civic?
I was rather thinking a faction should get some reward (extra trade route income?) if a faction runs its favourite civic. Then the diplomacy option asking an AI to switch civics could actually become of some use.

 

[GeoModder]

Then why would a human player ever run his favourite civic?

To have a synergie between faction boni and best civic?

 

[Pfeffersack]

No I'm afraid there's only a direct and immediate negative for now. They all have this line right now:
<iHatedCivicAttitudeChange>-1</iHatedCivicAttitudeChange>

If it is only that line for that moment I could add it my self to the leaderhead file, if you like - just tell me where to insert it.

Along to what you have suggested I would use the following values:

Deidre, Miriam: -2 (not too much more negative attitude from the religious zealots)

Lal: -6 (I think this extra big penalty here is ok, Civics are his department - otherwise we will stay at "everyone's Lals darling")

Morgan, Santiago, Zhak: -4 (for the reasons you said)

Yang: -2 (he despises Democracy, but OTOH he is an isolationist and as long as you fulfil his requests...moreover, another Police State might be an ideological friend, but it can be also a military powerhouse)

The values are a bit lower then what you can get out of sharing civics, but as long as we are stuck with a single immediate penalty I just don't feel comfortable with e.g. a sudden -8 from Lal.

 

[Maniac]

Thanks, I'll use those values for the next patch!

 

[Pfeffersack]

Maniac, I have updated the spreadsheet from leaderhead v10 with the suggestions you have made and also included the new hated civic tag. If the new values are ok, I will start to convert the leaderhead.xml

 

[Maniac]

Thanks, the values look great!

 

[Pfeffersack]

Here is the file...

 

[Maniac]

Thanks - will be in the next patch, probably this weekend.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Five times better then the current value of 20 (which is the BTS maximum only reached by Mansa and Peter) would mean 100. If I understand the source I mentioned in my last post coreectly, that would mean +1 per tech...

Hmm, I ended up with +17 so far in my current game - for my taste a bit too much. I think 3x (=60) would be enough. Of course, the problem could be also tackled by giving him a faster decay for positive tech trade effects (OTOH, that would be against the idea that leaders are especially picky and "unforgiving" about things which are important for them).

 

[Maniac]

Hmm, that's indeed a bit much. Perhaps a reduction might be advised then.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Hmm, that's indeed a bit much. Perhaps a reduction might be advised then.

By the way, I think the personality traits right now are a bit too strong. I mean it's nice to give them a distinct feel, but right now they seem to be a bit inflexible and predictable (a bit like Monty in vanilla Civ). I rather like them a bit more unpredictable, keeps you on your toes.

I think it's mainly from the addition of the hated civics, it makes them a bit predictable in the diplomatic constellation and their reaction to your actions. I rather like that component, I wouldn't want it to go, but I think the other values need to be tweaked a bit (basically, I have the feeling that the values are okay without the component and IIRC, it was added rather recently, exaggerating the underlying values/responses etc.).

I mean it's not really bad (better than in v8, for example), but lacks a little bit of fine-tuning. Obviously, just the feel I get from the game, no real number crunching involved.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

By the way, I think the personality traits right now are a bit too strong. I mean it's nice to give them a distinct feel, but right now they seem to be a bit inflexible and predictable (a bit like Monty in vanilla Civ). I rather like them a bit more unpredictable, keeps you on your toes.

I think it's mainly from the addition of the hated civics, it makes them a bit predictable in the diplomatic constellation and their reaction to your actions. I rather like that component, I wouldn't want it to go, but I think the other values need to be tweaked a bit (basically, I have the feeling that the values are okay without the component and IIRC, it was added rather recently, exaggerating the underlying values/responses etc.).

I mean it's not really bad (better than in v8, for example), but lacks a little bit of fine-tuning. Obviously, just the feel I get from the game, no real number crunching involved.

Cheers, LT.

Everything is possible, direction is just needed what to change, e.g. same/differen't religion and same civic can have 3 different weighting's ATM:

- strong: +8/-8*
- middle: +5/-5*
- weak: +2/-2*
* the extreme values for religion are only reached, if the AI has founded it's current religion as well, otherwise it' s: +/- 1/4/7

The strong and middle effects could be reduced to 6 and 4 for example.

Of course that leaves the question, if the factions having their focus not in areas (Morgan with emphaisze on trade, Santiago with emphasize on sharing wars and Yang with emphasize on paying tribute) should be changed as well and if the "cutted" feeling of the AIs above should show up in other areas again (otherwise we have an effect on how easy it is to becaome friend or foe as well, just because the max number of possible +'s and -'s shrinks)

 

[Maniac]

Personally I don't share Lord Tirian's experiences, as the hated civic is just one of many relationship modifiers. Also I'd argue that running someone's hated civic keeps you more on your toes, because you know war with that faction has just become more likely.

The only guy that bothers me with the big effects are Lal. However once I get to focus on the Councils, I was thinking to add a Council membership civic category. Lal's favourite civic would then be 'Planetary Council'. His huge reaction to civics would be less of a problem if his loved and hated civic are not in the same civic category. Also, at this point I could perhaps let Lal give relationship benefits for voting the way he does in Council, instead of for running the Council civic.

 

[Legate Damar]

Hi guys,

Thrilled to see this project up and running. I don't know if it's something you want to keep from the original, or how you'd implement it, but:

In SMAC, when Yang was #1 in the power rankings, he would declare on someone below him ASAP. When there are no "big brothers" to bring into the fight, he starts a fight as often as possible.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Hi guys,

Thrilled to see this project up and running. I don't know if it's something you want to keep from the original, or how you'd implement it, but:

In SMAC, when Yang was #1 in the power rankings, he would declare on someone below him ASAP. When there are no "big brothers" to bring into the fight, he starts a fight as often as possible.

It would need additional coding outside the XML files to make that happen in Planetfall.
Yang in Planetfall is designed to "like" weaker factions on the one hand, but he is also very willing to extort and attack such "friends", especially if they are geographically nearby. He can declare even on Friendly, his mood declines fast, if you don't comply to his demands and he is restricted to rather weak opponents, if he wages an offensive war. For me that mirrors quite good what was hard-coded in SMAC (some unpredictability can't hurt, IMO)

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Maniac, I have done the discussed change to Zhak regarding reducing the diplomatic tech trade bonus (to 60). I also added some more anger potential, if you spy on him (penalty for cought spy doubled to -200 - I think that's resonable for someone, who techs fast OTOH and gets easily infiltrated on the other hand).

BTW, I made the naming of the file consistent to the Planetfall version naming - I will from now on always refer with the name to the next expected patch to Planetfall (so now v11g)

 

[Maniac]

Thanks!

For me that mirrors quite good what way hard-coded in SMAC (some unpredictability can't hurt, IMO)

QFT!

 

[Maniac]

I also added some more anger potential, if you spy on him (penalty for cought spy doubled to -200 - I think that's resonable for someone, who techs fast OTOH and gets easily infiltrated on the other hand).

I think that might not be a good idea. The espionage defense penalty makes Zak a more attractive target. Making him more pissed off at you than other leaders could kinda cancel out that attractiveness again.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I think that might not be a good idea. The espionage defense penalty makes Zak a more attractive target. Making him more pissed off at you than other leaders could kinda cancel out that attractiveness again.

The reason why I had this idea is that you can pretty easily build up a relation with Zhak, if you just get him one time above the trade tech treshhold. From then one, the constant trading imprves the relations further and further - and if you can't get something via trade from him, you can still steal. The -1 if you get cought at all just don't really make a difference. It's the thing that you can get both (trading and stealing) without much trouble.
But maybe the reduction of the diplo bonus form tech trading alone is enough...here are the files without the espionage change: