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[Xtended] New Civs (re)design

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by esvath, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    If you want to, maybe try to put postUnitCombat function to relevant units from Winter Court, making them abduct slave on this function (like Mimic's stealing promotion)? I am not sure this would work, though.
    But personally, I am fine with every units during Winter Court can create slave.

    One thing I forgot to mention in previous posts: does this mechanic create double slave if the unit has slavery promotion/Slavery civic active?


    That's cool! Have you try to run AI against Winter Court, to see how they react with the damage?


    I'd love to! Let's see what will happen during your test and think the best way to code this into Xtended.
     
  2. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

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    Very exciting changes you've done to the Fairies Linvega :thumbsup: !! I am looking foward to play it.
     
  3. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    Thank you, now you don't have to wait any longer ;)

    -Thanks for the remark, I forgot about that. Since I see no way of making slavery and this mechanic interacting the way I want it, Aos-Si slaves now are simply able to teleport back to the capital instead, like the Amurites guy.
    -As far as I've seen, at least the Barbarian AI is behaving normally. In any case, I gave an upper limit of 20% dmg, so the AI can't just wander/stand around until it's nearly dead unless you help with spells, in which case the dmg from the realm doesn't really make a difference anyway since it's so low.

    Now for everyone, here is the download link: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=12087437337037054595
    Sorry it took me a bit longer but I at least wanted to make sure it's working with the new xtended, and I couldn't help myself trying out the new austrin first :p. It's only the changes to the faeries, I didn't incorporate anything else I did.
    Simply extract the files and merge the Assets folder with you own, just like Xtended. For me it's working, but I'm playing with some other changes, so bear with me if you have problems. It's also my first "mod", so be gentle ;)
     
  4. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    Some thoughts after playtesting the new Austrin:
    1. They're awesome in early game. Getting an otherwise expensive tech completely for free is great, and the new wanderer trait allows you to explore the map right from day one. In my last game, I got 3 techs from wildlings and something like 300-400 gold! However, this is necessary, because...
    2. Their late game is atrocious. Not only do they have no awesome improvements with which they synergize with(like the Malakim), or are able to terraform hardcore(like the faeries), a city limit of 6 is extremely punishing, it's about half the size you'd normally want your cities to be, not to mention that you'd normally want to have at least 1-2 super-big cities. For Sorah and Ecks this is fine since the Joining is basically your late game, but...
    3. Deirdra is terrible. Expansive is almost a wasted trait since even with Sorah I only need like 5 turns per settler thanks to the huge food surplus, and as small as your cities are, you have no use for the extra health. Imo she needs a rehaul.
    4. Unfortunately, while the early game fits with lore(you explore a lot), the mid-to lategame doesn't, because by lore you'd want to spread out your settlements, but the gameplay incentives you to spam cities closely to each other to make full use of all your terrain thanks to the pop limit and low maintenance. Again, I'm fine with this for Sorah and Ecks since you at least want to put a single city far away from you for the Joining, but this makes Deirdra pretty bland.
    5. Austrin has such a strong synergy with slavery(you don't care about unhappiness much anyway, and you actually can use your food for something) that I'd say you're playing very sub-optimal if you don't use it. Aside from making them somewhat one-dimensional, this doesn't fit with lore at all.
    6.Prepare expedition is way to expensive. As said, I usually need 5 turns for a settler, but for prepare expedition, it's more like 20. And not using food is actually a disadvantage for austrin, not an advantage.

    If I would make changes, they'd look something like this:
    -Make prepare expedition cost 180, like a settler
    -Make Austrin able to trade on all Terrain(Malakim is unique enough, they can share a bit of that :p). This makes spreading out your cities much more viable.
    -Take away expansive from Deirdra
    -Give her some (maybe unique) trait that makes it more appealing for her to build her cities all over the map, like generating gold based on distance to the next city/capital, and/or giving her some bonus on ressources/unique landmarks but higher maintenance(so that for Deidra, cities are only worth it if they can work on unique landmarks/several ressources, which is only the case for some places on the map and makes spamming cities close to each other less viable), give even more trade routes, etc.
     
  5. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I have been thinking of giving Deidra a pseudo-barbarian trait (barbarian units will ignore them but without science/cultural malus). That surely will make her stronger during early game and able to scatter her cities but that also takes away the benefits of destroying lairs. So, I have not make up my mind on this.

    Another idea for Austrin:
    - give them a middle game building, say Food Trader, which gives -30% food income but gives +10 gold (they are exporting food to other civs)? That would make them synergise better with Merchant Houses and can buy troops.

    Btw, what is intereting about Joining, both flavour-wise and gameplay-wise? I always fail to understand this mechanic.
     
  6. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    As Austrin, it's actually pretty easy to ignore the barbarians unless they attack you thanks to the movement bonuses. And Deidra will still prefer to build cities closely because the incentives will still be the same.
    The Food Trader sounds like a good idea, I like that.
    Oh, that reminds me: I also made some Trader/Market buildings that allow you to exchange ressources with gold and vice versa, though at a somewhat sub-optimal way, but in turn, they also give some other boni. Imo it plays quite nicely because depending on which ressources you have as a surplus, you will get different advantages, which adds some flavour. It also allows to get out of some sticky situations, f.e. I had a game where I was the Illians, wanted to build some Trade Posts but I couldnt due to a lack of herbs. However, due to the ice terrain, it was literally impossible to build plantations, and thanks to evil+agnostic, I couldn't even go for Herbalism. Some limited ways to get much-needed ressources would be nice.

    Well, flavour-wise it's somewhat cool to play in a team of two civs instead of one, and gameplay-wise, it gives some strategic choices where to build that city, how much ressources should be poured into it and when to build the Joining itself.

    And btw, did you try out the faeries now?
     
  7. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Yeah, that's true. That makes me still with no idea for new trait for Deidra.

    That is interesting. How do you code this? Through python?

    I haven't had the chance to play, maybe next week end I can. Nowadays, I run games with AI players only and check them after a few hundred turns. This is great to know general picture of a modification I made and AI's reactions but will be unable to appreciate the flavour of a change, and I really want to savour your mod!
     
  8. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

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    I've just started my new playtrough with the Aos Si civilization. I am still at the beginning of the game (i play on marathon, so my games usually may take weeks), so i still don't have much feedback about balance. But, i am having a blast playing with Cairn and all the features are working flawlessly.

    So far, despite of being in early game, it feels balanced to me. Since i can get a lot of slaves from barbarian lairs (i actually farm most of them, instead of destroying), it's viable to play in the winter court even in the early game without getting far behind in score and in population in comparison with other civilizations.

    Loving damagin realm also :p
     
  9. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    Well, as said, one doable thing(well, at least I think it is) would be giving her boni on ressources/unique features, but with increased maintenance. This would incentive her to spread out her cities in general, and more specifically, to actively search for far-away places with lots of ressources/unique features in one place. It's also nice since searching for ressources fits the explorer theme pretty well imo. The disadvantage would be that it's yet another unique trait, and that it would be somewhat difficult to balance. Another thing would be generating gold based on distance to the capital, but I'm even less sure how to implement this and imo it's not as interesting/engaging as actively searching for places to settle.

    You are thinking too complicated, I'm not that good yet :p. I just did fixed gold gain /ressource loss and vice versa on the buildings, because that's easily doable in XML and thus the AI should be able to understand it. the "trader" buildings give 8 [ressource] for a cost of 10 gold and the "market" buildings give 8 gold for 10 [ressource] + some bonus based on the ressource so far, as well as world wonder "grand markets" which give pretty big boni and give 25 gold for 40 [ressource]. The markets also cost 500/1000 of the respective ressource, to additionally keep the AI from building them if they can't afford it. Though I'm still unsure whether the AI really can use these buildings well since in one of my last games, the grand lumber market was build on turn 80 or something like that, and I don't think that by that turn the AI is already gaining more than 50 lumber per turn. I've simply manually decreased the AI preference for the building since then.


    Happy to hear that! Have fun ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  10. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Linvega's report make me feel that the new Austrin mechanics do not have a compensation for having city sizes limited to size 6 !

    a few ideas (that might or might not compensate) :

    • super improvements related to exploration : World Natural Wonders / Ancient Tower / Dungeon / Lairs / mana nodes / witch hut / lost temple / mana source? : they all get either greatly improved yield for Austrin, And/OR they upgrade to an Austrin-specific improvement that gives nothing to non-Austrin. (it would be best to have dungeons and lairs be explorable by austrin into an "explored lair" that gives nothing but some small yield to Austrin, upgrade in 5turn to Austrin-Lair, and in 15 turns into the savage lair (so that if not in austrin territory, the lair goes back to producing barbs).
      • (example : Skeleton lair : +2hammer, +2commerce, +2metal, +2stone / Goblin fort: +1F, +2H, +3Wood, +1Stone / Ogre-steading : +2F +3H +3Stone
      • Ancient tower : +2commerce, +2spellresearch, upgrades into Austrin-Only Sage Tower : +3commerce, +4spellresearch.
      • Witch hut (increased Austrin Yield: +2herbs), upgrades to Austrin-Only: herbalist hut : base yield +2commerce +4herbs.
    • Super 'exploration' buildings: Austrin get buildings / state wonders that give free yield/hammers/etc (to city or to empire) based on
      • un-improved terrain in BFC (but it's best if those buildings can only be build slowly / and even better need different tech/guilds to produce)
        • Climbing School : needs a mountain and a hill in BFC : gives guerilla II to units, gives +1 stone/unimproved hill +2 per unimproved mountain
        • Geology Study : needs access to gems or amber, need a hill on BFC : gives +1commerce +1 metal per unimproved hill
        • Metal study : need gold, copper, iron or mithril in BFC : gives +1metal/unimproved hill / desert / mountain.
        • Forest-craft: need forest in BFC; +1 lumber/ unimproved forest-mushroom
        • Herbal Study: need a plantation in BFC: +1herb / jungle-mushroom
        • ...
      • special feature/improvement in city-space :
        • Witch Pharmacy/shop : need witch hut in BFC : +2mana, +20%herbs, +2herbs, +1free Sage (respectively merchant).
        • Wandering Priest: need lost temple in BFC : +20%faith, +2 faith, +1 free Priest
        • Exploration School: need Dungeon in BFC: +3 free specialist per Dungeon in BFC.
    • Growth-allowing-buildings: special buildings that allow a +1 / +2 /+3 city-size growth
      • "Exploration hut" : +2 city size growth
      • "Exporation guild: needs 3 exploration huts: +3 city-size growth
      • "Marina": UB for Harbor : +2 city size growth
      • "Sage quarter" : +3 city size growth : limited to sage district
      • "Campus" : UB for university (or archives?) +2 city size growth
      • "Merchant guild house": UB for caravanserail : +3 city-size growth
      • Training yard / barrack...etc all become UB that increase City-Size-Growth by +1 or +2
    • ...Etc
    I hope those ideas, none of which is balanced or useful, might give some ideas to help those poor Austrins...
    (I know that some of those mechanics are doable... but maybe not with the MoM dll :/ )
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  11. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    I really like those ideas, maybe I'll try to implement some Austrin-exclusive improvements. Though first I need to find out how the Scions-exclusive quarry works...
    I'd then give Deirdra an trait that further strengthens those improvements, which will give her even more incentives to spread out and search for them than Soren and Ecks.
    I'd hold back with allowing bigger cities for now, maybe one or two buildings that give +1 each. After all, you often don't want cities much bigger than 10 anyway, so if the Austrin would be able to build cities of that size, they'd have the advantage of much lower maintenance + free trade routes, but without practical disadvantages.
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    there are two ways :
    either give a "phantom tech" to austrin: it enables all the extra yield to the targeted improvements (and can even unable buildings / special spells so that only high level recon units can build the special buildings...Etc)

    or there are the Scions and the Kuriotates that have a unique upgrade for a building : quarry and town respectively.

    (for the bigger cities, I agree with you, it was more a proposition to change the growth-system for Austrin and less a proposition for balancing the Austrin vs low pop.)

    A second thing IMO is that all district related buildings should have lower cost and different effect : higher or with a different trigger. Those buildings are costly, usually reserved to the more productive cities (archive-university / bank (as you want high gold yield before spending the money for that building)..etc) ; even specialization districts (sage/sorcery/temple/warrior/bard/merchant's) : you usually spend the money on them when you expect the city to get high revenue.
    however, the base districts, and some of the buildings have their effect dependign on population.
    Ergo : Main Warrior district, Main Temple district, Main Bard district and Main Sage district generally give their worth with a high pop ONLY.
    SO IMO, UB for those district-related building could be a good thing (Kuriotates or Akristah got district changes: Kuriotates can have multiple districts per city IIRC).

    But I have no idea on how to balance tall cities with a large empire with small cities without making those new buildings OP, without compensation.

    (maybe increase their output but add :mad: faces ? so that Austrin would need to build :) not to gain more population, but to enable better buildings/districts ? )
     
  13. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    This!
     
  14. Alexej

    Alexej Prince

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    I am going to try your changes on faeries (all leaders really) right after finishing or getting bored with my Dural game, and I am also playing marathon speeds only :)
    Observation from playing Dural so far : I am on turn 364 most deep in civilian resarch so far, my strongest unit is Local Legend Professor and he is fragile since he should be support :D I need to get to Karrlson because I am loading after his dead more than can be considered healthy (tends to defend stack too many times because other troops are weaker). Trained him to Justicar with focus on converting units so I can have more units than cap allows (also summoning can get you over cap just training is impossible) I am not having as much fun as with Amurites last game, something is missing there for Dural. They should get some cavalry unit, someone mentioned Messenger with good movement and withdraw to soften enemies before Watchman or Professor strikes. Those are great for defending cities but really meh for clearing camps compared to swordmages (which is fine everyone has its own strenghts)

    I am not sure if Professors Assimilate Mind is working nothing is added to researched tech after victory from my observations or there is only chance to add research on victory?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  15. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I agree. I am still unsatisfied with them (and Jotnar, and Austrin....).
    Feel free to post your suggestion on them!

    Yeah, there is a mistake on its code. Thanks!
     
  16. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    I just wanted to say, I simply gave the Austrin some "small" boni(like +2 hammers, +3 gold f.e.) for all the auto-generating "normal" improvements(towers etc.), and big boni (+5 hammers, +10 gold f.e.) for the unique improvements and that small change already makes them feel more unique as well as competitively viable since it definitely does make up for the small city size. The next thing I'd do is give Deirdra the ability to turn Lairs into ressource-generating improvements instead, that should flesh her out better. Everything else I'd maybe to after that.
     
  17. Alexej

    Alexej Prince

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    Linvega I cant cast winterfeast (grayed out) on city with slave having full mana, only can hurry production

    Edit :
    1, few turns after that I was able to use it, strange
    2, Recons sometimes create slaves also from defeated animals that I want caged xD
    3. My moonfaeries recon units show Assimilate Mind buff on themselves, not working though same as Dural Professor
    4. Ranger from Rangers guild doesnt get any fae promotion but that can be intentional
    5. Any idea why cant use bloom spell with fawn in bloom save? because of snow/ice?
    6. Can someone explain Winter/Summer restoration ritual?
    7. Brilliance usable next to skeletons even if spell does nothing to them, and it is not even damaging werevolves
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  18. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    3.,4.,5.,6.,7. aren't things I did anything about, so esvath will know more about it. I'll try to answer some of them to my best knowledge though.

    1. The requirements are: The city is happy + the slave is standing on snow . So one of these requirements wasn't fulfilled.
    2. That's weird, I used the same mechanic that is used in slavery, so it shouldn't work differently.
    3. No idea
    4. Seems to be intentional, just like some other units you get "for free"
    5. I looked into the requirements of the bloom spell in the xml and aside from "only inside your borders", I unfortunately didn't see any requirements.
    6. So far, it's only there so you can restore the eternal court. There is no other advantage you get from it afaik.
    7. No idea
     
  19. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    There was a typo on the code. It is fixed for 5.4

    Intentional. Aos Si has no unique Ranger.

    Fawn's Bloom requires: FOL state religion, in border only and will sacrifice the Fawn. Forest can only grow on Plains, Grass and Tundra.

    Typo on the code. It is fixed for 5.4
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  20. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Oh, that's an interesting idea! If you care to upload the files, I might take a look and adopt them somehow for the Austrin.
     

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